[Ruxpercnd]

First let me say that the Canadian Avro Arrow was a stunning achievement. However, I was watching this tv program that indicates that while the program might have been ended for political-economic reasons... that the planes and everything associated with it were totally destroyed because there were Soviet spys working in the plant.

Not to flame, but is Canadian security questionable? Personally, I would trust Canadian security today, but was it just hopeless in the 1950's? Perhaps America is the best place to handle defense programs because security is better here. Apparently even the Canadian government was shocked as to how infiltrated they were.

The Soviets knew the Avro Arrow design well enough so as to resurrect it as the Mig-25. So, if Canada cut up those magnificent planes to keep them from the Russians, it was pretty much for naught.

I recorded some of the program off the tv (see link below). I can only host this vid clip for a couple of weeks, so it would be nice to find another home for it.

Check it out: The Canadian Avro Arrow

[Regina]

Cutting it up so the Russians don't get it may be stretching the truth to sell something. The US didn't shred the Manhattan Project plans when the Russians stole them. Doesn't really make sense.........

[sasquatch2]

While it is a documented fact that Soviet agents were active throughout Canada and NATO, I find the link between the "ARROW" and the Foxbat incredible.

The basic similarity of delta wing, jet propulsion and high speed is not a smoking gun.

It would immensely easier for the American spooks/moles to infiltrate Malton than for Soviet moles.

A better agument could be made for the American B58 "Hustler" which popped up out of nowhere with a hitherto unknown Pratt & Whitney turbojet which produced the same thrust with the same mass flow and needed engine bays of identical dimensions to the Orenda "Iroquois" turbojet.

..........And then there is the "one that got away". Even the late June Calwood recalled hearing a very noisy jet take off from Malton, and head out over the Lake, in the middle of the night just after the famous closure/layoff of Avro Canada.

[bootlegga]

I find that higly doubtful.

The old RCMP Security Service was so good at counter-intelligence that the FBI used to send agents up here for 'cross-training'. Let's remember that the Security Service also stunned the Soviets and most of the world with the Igor Gouzenko defection. They used his testimony to catch almost a dozen Soviets spies here in Canada. As for the 'excellent security' in the US you allude to, it's a documented fact that the CIA and NSA were inflitrated by both Soviet and domestic agents throughout the Cold War. The Rosenbergs, Walkers, Aldrich Ames, etc. The list is huge!

The Mig-25 was designed to shoot down the B-70 bomber the USAF was developing in the 1960s. When it was cancelled, the Soviets simply continued development and production of the Mig-25.

[sasquatch2]

bootlegga

$1:

I find that higly doubtful.

It would not be a problem if the government did it.
bootlegga

$1:

The old RCMP Security Service was so good at counter-intelligence that the FBI used to send agents up here for 'cross-training'. Let's remember that the Security Service also stunned the Soviets and most of the world with the Igor Gouzenko defection. They used his testimony to catch almost a dozen Soviets spies here in Canada. As for the 'excellent security' in the US you allude to, it's a documented fact that the CIA and NSA were inflitrated by both Soviet and domestic agents throughout the Cold War. The Rosenbergs, Walkers, Aldrich Ames, etc. The list is huge!

The brits and the French were riddled with spies/moles as well. The mcLean, Burgess, Philby matter was especially embarassing for the brits as the highest intelligence officials were in reality sole moles.
bootlegga

$1:

The Mig-25 was designed to shoot down the B-70 bomber the USAF was developing in the 1960s. When it was cancelled, the Soviets simply continued development and production of the Mig-25.

Yes that is long established but I personally see little Arrow technology in the Foxbat. At the end of the day the foxbat was an extremely fast airframe with crude sensors and ineffective armament. It was however an excellant recon platform.

[jimbunting]

As some one who was actually ALIVE during that period of time, and who later was a military intelligence officer in Canada, I can say with some conviction that the cancellation of the Arrow project had NOTHING to do with soviet spies,and everything to do with the fears of the American Air Force that their future aircraft would be inferior to the Arrow, and that it would be the air craft of choice for purchase by European air forces.

The Canadian Government of the day was pressured to a great extent, by the US Government, to stop the development of the Arrow, which was designed to be an "all weather fighter/intreceptor " that had to be able to " self start " on the ground at minus 40 degrees F, with out either a battery cart or a hot air compressor cart. That was only one of the numerous capabilities that the design specs called for. It was designed to be able to fly from far northern air fields in the Canadian arctic, to meet and destroy Soviet air force manned bombers. When the Red Air Force developed ICBM's the manned bomber threat was reduced, and that was the "reason " that was given for the end of the Arrow project.

The real deal was this.........The American military air craft industry was sacred to death of the Arrow and what it could all ready do, with the obsolete engines, never mind the new "iroquois " power plant. They placed great pressure on the US Government to in turn pressure Canada, to kill the Arrow, and the secret deal was this..........Kill the Arrow, and we ( the USA ) will provide the BOMARK missle system at all most free cost, AND train your people, and install them in Canada, at various bases and stations, AND maintain them for 20 years, at no cost.

Diefenbaker jumped at the chance to get some thing for " allmost nothing " and the rest as they say, " Is History" The aftermath of the cancellation of the Arrow was that the majority of the team that designed and then built the Arrow left Canada, either to work in the UK or the USA, and Canada has never again built an advanced military aircraft, of any kind, to this day.

Was that the real intent of the plan to kill the Arrow , and replace it with a US built missle defence system.? I think so.

It had nothing to do with Soviet spies. It had everything to do with ensuring that Canada would never again be a world leader in aircraft design and construction, at least in the military sector, and we would be dependant on the USA for our military air craft.

Worked didn't it ?


Jim B Toronto.

[Ruxpercnd]

Hey Jim... Just curious. Why was the whole thing handled so mysteriously and so abruptly with no discussion. Why was there not more deliberation?

Why not just transfer the program to America, sell or license it?

This thing is like the Kennedy Assasination... never satisfactorily explained.

Seems to me that the only reason for secrets is to protect national security.

Of course in these matters, sometimes a heavy club is swung... e.g., when the Americans first developed the flying wing bomber, now represented by the B-1 bomber. That early progam was abruptly cancelled... some even think that a working flying wing was sabotaged so that it would fail in flight. Then we develop this B-1 bomber that cost more than it's weight in gold.


Anyway... it appears that spy infiltration was part of the Avro Arrow equation.
From: http://elronsviewfromtheedge.wordpress. ... e-heart-2/

$1:

......And yet, On Feb 20th, 1959, John Diefenbaker, Canada’s Conservative Prime Minister at the time, announced the cancellation of the program. More than simply cancelling the program, Diefenbaker ordered the prototypes destroyed, and all the plans, blueprints, and drawings shredded and burned. Officially, after cancellation, the Arrow program proved too much of a security risk with RCMP reports of Soviet spies in and around the AVRO facilities, and these security concerns ‘explain’ the destruction orders of the prototypes and plans.

While those security concerns were certainly valid, several chances to preserve Arrow prototypes through the National Research Council (as one exmple) were rejected in favour of the extreme solution of destruction. When coupled with the lack of explanation for the cancellation of the project, and there are legitimate questions about what was happening behind the scenes at the time.....

Of course, I am wondering about what ever happened to these spies. Maybe nothing. Here is an interesting comment on spies in Canada:

From: http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/6599-14.cfm

$1:

...Rarely have Canadian authorities prosecuted people for espionage, mainly because convictions under the Official Secrets Act are difficult to obtain and, with the damage already done, more can be gained by getting the person to co-operate and become a double agent. Ordinarily, the most that ever happens to someone caught passing secrets is administrative punishment -- a simple dismissal from the job or a demotion...

Wow! Canada really is different! With such a lax policy, it would seem that Canada would not be a good place to keep secrets.

As an aside, here is a fun,easy read: Securing an Open Society : Canada’s National Security Policy
http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/docs/Publicati ... rnat_e.pdf

.... a curious document title, to use "Open Society" and "Security" in the same sentence. But that may explain a lot about Canada.

[jimbunting]

The "spies " bit was a way to explain the ending of the Arrow project, but it was not a fact. just an expedient way to cover the reality. The Diefenbaker government was all ready in deep trouble over a national scandal re the western Canadian oil pipeline contract, and other lesser political problems.

As someone who is STILL legally bound by the Official Secrets Act, I can tell you that we take it very seriously here in Canada, and I can point to various well know cases, in the past, where spies and their associates were convcited and sentenced to long prison terms. I guess there is a main difference in political and social thinking, between the USA and Canada, re the attitude towards official secrecy.

We think is possible to have both an "open society" and at the same time, maintain some degree of secrecy in Government.

One basic example may be this...........In the USA, it is possible to go on a US Federal Government website to search for anyone's SS number and find out if they are alive or dead. In Canada that is illegal, and anyone who tries to do it will be prosecuted for doing so. The Privacy Act here is used to keep personal information, private. In the USA, if you are willing to pay for it, anyone can get the most intimate information thru " Information brokers " That is illegal in Canada.

AS to the Arrow saga, it has been a long time and as I said in my first post in this thread, most of the people who are discussing this event, were not even alive at the time that this was happening.

Jim B. Toronto.

[Ruxpercnd]

Thanks Jim. Things have gotten out of control here in the U.S. as far as control of information. Personal information is up for grabs (business interests won that one) and U.S. national security is in the balance because of incompetency in our government that let's people from China work on nuclear projects... that is just crazy. All our politicians are on the take. With only two parties, they can get away with a lot. Yesterday, I had to show I.D. and sign my name at the pharmacy to buy a package of Claritin-D. I think my name went into a national database of cold medicine buyers. Got that one locked down.

I was very alive during the Avro Arrow project, but totally unaware of it. It wasn't like you could buy a model of the Avro Arrow at the dime store.

I read something that the previous Canadian government had been under pressure to kill the project, so when the new government came on board, they just made quick work of it. Thanks for sending us all your engineers. They probably sent us to the moon.

Maybe the Canadians chopped up the Arrow because they really didn't want the U.S. to get it.

[Mustang1]

jimbunting jimbunting:

As some one who was actually ALIVE during that period of time, and who later was a military intelligence officer in Canada, I can say with some conviction that the cancellation of the Arrow project had NOTHING to do with soviet spies,and everything to do with the fears of the American Air Force that their future aircraft would be inferior to the Arrow, and that it would be the air craft of choice for purchase by European air forces.
.

If the Americans were allegedly (they weren’t, but I’ll be sporting) fearful of the Arrow’s market intrusion, then why did they offer to buy it for the Canadian Air Force (see Mclin)? Hmm…and while you’re at it, why would any nation with the F-106, the FH4 and the F-108 even worry about the Arrow as a cotemporary competitor? Methinks a little history reading is in order.

The rest of the post is Capagna-style ahistorical dreck – long on paranoia and conspiracy theories and short on credible, scholarly work. In fact, I’m extremely interested to know how this Byzantine affair escaped the trained historical eyes of Granatstein, Morton, Chaiken and Mclin? Perhaps someone can enlighten us on to how the Canadian historical community missed such an obvious past transgression

[BartSimpson]

Wow, I'm really impressed with the Canadian patriotism coming through in this discussion. I can't find a thing wrong with that at all.




As to the Arrow, I wouldn't get too upset over it as there is going to be politics in any big ticket weapons platform.

In the 1980's and 1990's Northrop had the F-20 Tigershark which was a great fighter all on its own and would've been perfect for countries with small military budgets as it didn't need as much ground support as did the F-16 (its principle competitor).

It was killed by political wrangling in the Congress that made it legal to export the F-16 but illegal to export the F-20. It was also oppressively difficult to license the F-20 for production in other countries.

The net result was that a remarkable platform was killed for political reasons.

The only conspiracy was with the politicians.

I think the spy story with the Arrow is probably calculated to take heat off of some people who are still residing in Ottawa.

[jimbunting]

RUXPERCND:

The main ingredient in that medication is used to make crystal meth, so buyers are tracked.

Jim B.

[Clogeroo]

$1:

If the Americans were allegedly (they weren’t, but I’ll be sporting) fearful of the Arrow’s market intrusion, then why did they offer to buy it for the Canadian Air Force (see Mclin)? Hmm…and while you’re at it, why would any nation with the F-106, the FH4 and the F-108 even worry about the Arrow as a cotemporary competitor? Methinks a little history reading is in order.

The rest of the post is Capagna-style ahistorical dreck – long on paranoia and conspiracy theories and short on credible, scholarly work. In fact, I’m extremely interested to know how this Byzantine affair escaped the trained historical eyes of Granatstein, Morton, Chaiken and Mclin? Perhaps someone can enlighten us on to how the Canadian historical community missed such an obvious past transgression

What happened to the Arrow?

[-Mario-]

In his books, Mr. Campagna took time to show all his references.

As of the Arrow, we will never know what happened and what was said, when Dief went to the US to sell the Arrow to the US.

[Mustang1]

-Mario- -Mario-:

In his books, Mr. Campagna took time to show all his references.

As of the Arrow, we will never know what happened and what was said, when Dief went to the US to sell the Arrow to the US.

Campagna’s book is ahistorical junk. His references are incomplete, his analysis is shoddy and his conclusions are the worst kind of conspiracy-driven history. It’s a pop book and it’s entertaining, but it’s not in the same league as Bliss, Granatstein, Mclin, Chaiken or Morton – all of whom produce solid scholarly work.