[Jacob]

I wonder how SWIFT (pun intended) StatsCan will be with the prosecutions?

[rearguard]

Dancing, I can't wait to see the reply. What does one say when they try and take away our freedoms in secret, then get challenged to explain their actions? You asked a perfectly valid question - Exactly what experience justified making the census mandatory with penalties? Further, what rights do "we the people" have when Stats Can violates the peoples trust (as they have done with the 2006 census), but to refuse to cooperate with the census can land you in prison and/or have money forcebly taken away? How is any of this possible when we are supposed to live in a free country, where we're supposed to have certain unalienable rights as defined by the Charter and Constitution? How is it that the government is supposed to work for the people, but increasingly it's the other way around - eg, we the people MUST cooperate with the census, rather than Stats Can making sure that we the people WANT to cooperate!<br />

[Kevan Taylor]

a couple of things, I would have no problem completing the census if it wasn't for the american involvment.<br /> <br /> There are all sorts of reasons the census is important for the country.<br /> <br /> Second, finally got caught by a person at the door, who seemed very shocked that I would not fill it out and tried to act like she had no idea what I was talking about, even asked me to spell Lougheed Martin.<br /> <br /> But it was an obvious act. Of the people on her page, about ten, I was the only one that had refused written beside the name.

[Dancing]

<br /> Did you see report in today's newspaper? 400,000 people in B.C. have not filled out census.<br /> <br /> In response to the email I sent to Chief Statistician Ivan Felligi last week asking "what is the history of the census?", I received a very prompt phone call from Ottawa, a Stats Can official.<br /> <br /> I had planned that in any dialogue with Stats Canada I would stay on the topic of the history. Nice plan but I didn't stick to it! We had a lengthy conversation. And of course came to the question of why I wouldn't fill out the census, the validity of my logic, etc. I held my ground. As soon as I can I will type up the details and input them here, in case they may be of use to someone else. You will see where you can improve on the arguments I made, etc.<br /> <br /> If anyone is faced with legal action, I think, as a consequence of the conversation, that the critical factor will be THE REASON offered by the citizen for the non-compliance.<br /> <br /> Details of conversation later.<br /> <br /> Cheers!<br /> <br /> Dancing<br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

[Milton]

Good going Dancing. Which paper was that 400,000 from, I found the following, using google, from a radio station.<br /> <br /> "July 02, 2006 - 10:04 pm<br /> By: Tamiko Nicholson <br /> <br /> Stastics Canada is reminding people it's past the due date to fill out our 2006 census forms. It says about 400,000 BC households have not turned in their census forms yet andthat puts us behind the rest of the country. Statistics Canada says about 4 per cent of BC's population was not in the 2001 census -- compared to 3 per cent for the country as a whole. It adds that these forms are important because the help determine federal government transfer payment to the provinces. As well, if you don't fill out your forms you could be charged. After the 2001 census about 52 Canadians were charged, and they faced a fine of up to $500 and three months in jail. No one was jailed after the 2001 census, but others have been in the past."<br /> <br /> I think you are right about the persecutions, I used Lockheed Martin as my reason (see above posts) but I am thinking of developing a case based on the fact that this is no longer Canada, it is Mexacanus or North Corpsus or something like that.

[Dancing]

<br /> I got the 400,000 number (people in B.C. who haven't filled out the census) from the Saskatoon Star Phoenix.<br /> <br /> This is more philosophical, may be of interest to some.<br /> Some thoughts on our protest, set in the context of today's world. Sparked by an interview on internet with Bruce Levine, author of "Commonsense Rebellion". <br /> <br /> In yesterday's newspapers there were reports that youth urinated on the National War Memorial. There is outrage. Call in the Police. Also in the day's news: 400,000 adults in B.C. alone have not sent in their census forms. ... both are forms of rebellion, one by youth, one by adults. And I suspect they are related. ... I did not send in my census form because it afforded the opportunity to say: I, through my tax money, will not enable this activity that enriches part of the killing war machine (Lockheed Martin). It seems likely to me that the youth who urinated on the War Memorial are making a similar kind of statement, an act of non-violent resistance to war. If we understand that, we as a society (the Government in this case) can take appropriate steps. But it's easier to condemn and call in the police. We aren't too good at THINKING. <br /> <br /> Depression and rebellion are the SYMPTOMS of something wrong in society. They are connected. They lie at opposite ends of the same continuum, or so I conjecture. What is the thing that creates the depression and rebellion? Bruce Levine, in his book, "Commonsense Rebellion" has some answers.<br /> <br /> WHY do we have depressed people, and kids doing weird things, like urinating on the National War Memorial (yesterday's news)? If we understand, we can respond in appropriate ways that will begin to reverse current trends. <br /> <br /> I received an article by Bruce Levine, about the drug companies and the use of anti-depressant drugs. Google turned up an interview with him, that helps understand what's going on, on the larger scale. <br /> <br /> You may be depressed and go on drugs. (I don't say that is wrong for you.) Some other people, as the song goes, "raise a little hell". Many people have done both in their day. <br /> <br /> Would it not be better to understand WHY these things are happening, and start to work on removal of cause, rather than to "call in the police"? ... In my network we have talked about "dynamic systems". If you don't respond to feedback APPROPRIATELY, and in a TIMELY way, dynamic systems continue to deteriorate. After they pass a critical point ("tipping point" is the terminology currently in use in relation to climate change), the deterioration gathers momentum as inter-dependent parts further weaken and begin to cave in on each other. Past the tipping point, the system is not retrievable. It is not possible to bring it back into balance. <br /> <br /> Depression and rebellion are feedback about our society (a dynamic system). We ignore the feedback, or apply inappropriate remedies at our peril. The article by Bruce Levine provides us with appropriate remedies.<br /> <br /> In my network, we have discussed how topics fall along a continuum, with "end-points". The end-points mark how far to one side we (individual or society) are willing to go. As you, in your behaviour, move closer to a societal end-point, the people around you become more uneasy. Beyond the end-point is behaviour or thought that lies outside of what is acceptable. If you move outside the range, at either end, society will react to exclude you. You become a threat to the societal structure. The end-points move and change, along with the society. What is acceptable one year, may not be acceptable in another time (take the example of kids fighting on the school playground - very little tolerance for that today; 20 years ago the tolerance level was higher).<br /> <br /> Take the general principle and apply it to how we deal with the society around us. I don't know of an authority to quote, but one exists, I'm sure! My conjecture: if you don't like what you see or experience in the society, you can become overwhelmed by the enormity of the problems and become depressed. If you fight "for the right" for too long and cannot see where progress is being made, you might finally have to throw in the towel. Depression is likely to follow. Or you can rebell - more likely if you are young, or if you can see where your fight does bring results. <br /> <br /> So at one end of the behaviour continuum is depression. But it is not acceptable to have chronic depression because we live in the "developed" nations. Everyone is happy because you can go and buy whatever it is you want to make you happy. Depression must be gotten rid of! It conflicts with the self-image of the society. At the other end is rebellion. In between lie denial or avoidance of the things that are wrong, and anger if confronted. People slide back and forth along the continuum, at different times in their life. Ideally there is balance, somewhere in the middle. (A simplified statement.) It is like the serenity prayer: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference". Those three statements are profound, in my opinion. Especially the last one - wisdom. They help us manoeuvre between depression and rebellion that are outside the end-posts. <br /> <br /> Bruce Levine, a clinical psychologist, has thoughts on rebellion, on depression and on the use of drug treatment for depression. The partial text of an interview appears below. Excerpt:<br /> <br /> (He defines depression as a form of rebellion.)<br /> "... What I've found from my patients over the last 16 years is that the people who I see who are depressed and anxious are a lot of the most likable people I know. To me, it usually indicates that their soul is still intact. They're capable of feeling hurt, loss, pain — they haven't utterly anesthetized themselves like a lot of society. Take a look: one out of four people are on psychiatric drugs."<br /> <br /> We need to understand WHY the depression and rebellion are happening. We need to address the CAUSE, not the symptoms. But you can't address the cause if you don't understand what it is.<br /> <br /> You will see my enthusiasm for the words of Bruce Levine. From an email I sent into my network, "The Monsters We Have Created", "... Had I presented myself to be processed, there would have been no problem." <br /> <br /> The internet access to Bruce Levine's work is appended.<br /> <br /> So too is an email I sent to my son, to help him understand his own rebellious behaviour. It might be of interest to someone.<br /> <br /> diversionary = diverting us away from the real thing.<br /> <br /> The worst about the oppressors was not them, but we ourselves, all our cowardice and servility.<br /> <br /> Cheers!<br /> <br /> ============================<br /> <br /> BRUCE LEVINE<br /> <br /> A Mad, Mad Nation:<br /> Mental Illness and the Drugging of Rebellious Tendencies<br /> <br /> is the name of the article about the interview with Levine (author of Commonsense Rebellion). If you don't have time to read the whole article, scroll down to where the interviewer says: EXPLAIN THE "REBELLION" COMPONENT OF YOUR BOOK TITLE. <br /> <br /> Web address:<br /> http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/feattalvi_141_p.html<br /> ==============================<br /> <br /> TO MY SON<br /> <br /> Until this morning I could not put it all together, enough to help you understand your rebellion. And I couldn't figure out whether I was part of the problem, or not. Because I, too, am rebelling.<br /> <br /> When you are rebelling, which is what you are doing, it is helpful if you understand WHY you are rebelling.<br /> <br /> Rebelling is actually a good thing. It is what our society needs. Because there are many things that are wrong with it. I think you know that, just from your relationships with young women and young men. They come to believe the things they do, because of the influences in the society. What many of them think they believe, is not healthy for them, or for their relationships, or for society.<br /> <br /> Your rebellion will always be set in a context, the context of the family and the society in which you live. <br /> <br /> If the society is teaching its young people unhealthy things, then we need to make corrections in the society. Corrections are made by rebellion. The rebellion can be constructive for the population, or it can be destructive, as in the French Revolution which replaced one bad thing with worse. You, your family, and friends will tend to think of your situation as "you". Well yes, it is you - but only partly. You are reacting to the forces around you, and that have been at play in your life until now. If you understand that, it is MUCH easier to see what is BEHIND your actions - which I have grappled with, and understood to some extent, but not in a way to be able to make it understandable and helpful. Now I think I can.<br /> <br /> Last night I read an interview with a fellow named Bruce Levine. He helped to draw together and articulate - to make comprehensible - or to weave together the threads you and I've been working with. When you read something that is "on the mark", you respond to it. You can see the truth in it. When someone helps you to "see" or understand, it's kind of exciting. A friend has explained it this way: the person helps you to verbalize understanding that has been non-verbal to date. It's what "you know, but you don't know". You move from non-verbal to verbal understanding.<br /> <br /> Then overnight I sleep while my being or brain goes to work on it. (probably "being" and not "brain", because the cells throughout our body carry memory and knowledge - it's not only in the brain). <br /> <br /> By this morning I have integrated what Levine had to say with what is already "in there". It's more information that has been added to the mixer, it's now in the conscious part of my brain, able to be verbalized. <br /> <br /> That's how it works.<br /> <br /> I will send you the article in another email. And then we can talk about it, in relationship to yourself. Or, I can write out the explanation so you can understand why you are rebelling. If you understand that, you can find the best way to rebell. You can rebell in a way that won't get you into trouble!<br />

[Dancing]

Whoa! For those whose non-compliance with the Census is motivated by Lockheed Martin's involvement, please read the letter I've sent to Ottawa Police. I will also send it to Stephen Harper (pm@pm.gc.ca).<br /> <br /> As citizens in protest, we are in deep doo-doo if the persons who urinated on the War Memorial get charged under the Criminal Code, as today's news suggests will happen.<br /> <br /> Subject: Criminal charges for people who protest against war?<br /> <br /> TO:<br /> Chief of Ottawa Police, Vince Bevan<br /> bevanv@ottawapolice.ca<br /> <br /> CC:<br /> Ottawa Police Services Board<br /> Lynn.Kennedy@ottawa.ca<br /> <br /> Dear Police Chief Vince Bevan,<br /> <br /> Three youth protested against war by urinating on the War Memorial. If it was a Peace Memorial, they wouldn't have urinated on it. <br /> <br /> Persons who will stand up and make a statement against things in our society that need to be corrected (for example, war) would be thanked if we think things through. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding.<br /> <br /> To prosecute people who protest against war is to enter into an authoritarian regime that silences its critics. <br /> <br /> I am protesting against involvement in war by non-cooperation with the Census (part of the Census work is contracted out to Lockheed-Martin Corporation that is a big part of the American military machine). My tax dollars are going to enrich people who are war mongers. I don't have to stand idly by and let it go unchallenged. 400,000 people in B.C. ALONE are not complying with the Census. The main motivation is Lockheed-Martin / war. The persons who urinated on the War Memorial are making the same statement, but in a louder voice than mine.<br /> <br /> Canada's history and legacy promotes peace. I cherish that value and will defend it through action. If Gandhi could bring down the British Empire through a form of warfare called non-violent resistance, then surely we are smart enough to use non-violent resistance against tyrants, whether in Iraq or Afghanistan. We lack ingenuity if we can't.<br /> <br /> Rebellion tells us that something is wrong in our society. It's a form of feedback. We need to understand WHY the rebellion (non-compliance with the Census and urination on the War Memorial) is happening. Then address the CAUSE of the problem, NOT the symptoms. <br /> <br /> I hope the news report of possible charges against the persons who urinated on the War Memorial are incorrect. <br /> <br /> Yours truly,<br /> Sandra Finley<br /> (contact info)<br /> <br /> <br /> Ottawa Police Services Board<br /> Lynn.Kennedy@ottawa.ca<br /> <br /> Provincial Appointees <br /> Henry Jensen (Vice Chair) (613) 560-1270 <br /> Des Doran (613) 560-1270 <br /> Diane Guilmet-Harris (613) 560-1270 <br /> <br /> Citizen appointed by City Council: <br /> Danielle Morin (613) 560-1270 <br /> <br /> The three representatives of City Council are: <br /> Michel Bellemare (613) 580-2481 <br /> Mayor Bob Chiarelli (613) 580-2496 <br /> Eli El-Chantiry (Chair) (613) 580-2475 <br /> <br /> Executive Director <br /> Wendy Fedec (613) 560-1270 <br /> <br /> Administrative Assistant <br /> Lynn Kennedy (613) 560-1270 <br /> =============================<br /> <br /> http://ottsun.canoe.ca/News/OttawaAndRegion/2006/07/06/1670240-sun.html<br /> <br /> <br /> Thu, July 6, 2006<br /> <br /> Charges eyed for trio ID'd in war memorial desecration<br /> By DONNA CASEY<br /> <br /> Young men caught on camera urinating on the National War Memorial could face Criminal Code charges for their Canada Day hijinks. <br /> <br /> Ottawa police have identified two youths and a 23-year-old man who relieved themselves just steps from the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. <br /> <br /> While investigators pieced together how the men came to desecrate a public space deemed sacred, police will consult with the Crown's office to determine which charges -- if any -- the trio will face. <br /> <br /> They could face an array of charges, including a $125 fine for public urination or a penalty under the National Capital Commissions Act, since the alleged offence occurred on NCC-administered property. <br /> <br /> They could also be charged with mischief, a Criminal Code offence that carries possible jail time, said Const. Steven Desjourdy. <br /> <br /> "What's in their best interest and what's in the best interest of society? The law is also there to help them understand what society is all about," said Desjourdy. <br /> <br /> The youths, who hail from Ottawa, were identified to police by members of the public yesterday after their photos appeared in newspapers across the country. <br /> <br /> The teens are not in custody and have not been charged with any offence. Investigators have been "in communication" with them. <br /> <br /> A 23-year-old man called police yesterday as investigators were in the process of contacting him. <br /> <br /> Desjourdy said police are not releasing his name since he hasn't been charged with any offence. Police would only say that the man was from outside the Ottawa area.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Dancing]<br /> Three youth protested against war by urinating on the War Memorial. If it was a Peace Memorial, they wouldn't have urinated on it. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Bullshit. It is a gravesite, not a memorial to war. To remember the war dead is to strive for peace. People who tip over gravestones in cemetaries deserve no less punishment.<br /> <br /> As for the rest of your post, thanks!

[Dancing]

With many thanks to Jake, I'm still laughing. I apologize for making unwarranted deductions. <br /> <br /> And I am red-faced. Sorry! <br /> <br /> Jake writes:<br /> <br /> Here is what I think happened.<br /> <br /> The individuals were not protesting NOR were they wanting to be <br /> disrespectful.<br /> <br /> The entire area around the memorial has no bathrooms whatever. I was there 2 <br /> weeks ago.<br /> <br /> The people involved had been drinking and were in need of a toilet. A bit <br /> drunk perhaps, they urinated on the memorial steps. It was not right but <br /> they did it.<br /> <br /> Jake

[wasjod]

The local news in Calgary (Global) had a segment on the census and how it is the law that people need to fill it out, this occured Monday night, July 3. They are getting desperate. I wonder how many peope in Alberta have not filled out the census? I recently got a form letter from the Western Region and Northern Territories office (see link), may send it back, may not. Nobody has been round, and I live in Calgary.<br /> <br /> http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1340/lastscan2dl.jpg

[canada777]

I am still really steamed!<br /> <br /> We got our census form a while back and when I found out that LM was handling the data, I tossed the census out.<br /> <br /> A week or so later a guy buzzes my apartment, asking if I have filled out the form, blah blah blah. I lied and said we sent it in.<br /> <br /> A week later (today) the same guy comes back and very aggressively pursues the issue with me. I hang up the intercom on him and a mnute later he is pounding on my f***ing door. Someone had let him into our building.<br /> <br /> By now I was really pissed. I told him this was harrassment and asked him if there was some kind of legal requirement to fill this out. He said I could be fined or imprisoned if I did not. I told him to take me to court at which time my wife pulls me back into the apartment and she gives the guy most but not all the census info he is looking for.<br /> <br /> My question is this: What are the penalties for not filling out a form and has anyone ever been taken to task for not filling one out?

[Action-Jackson]

Here in Vancouver there have been Stat Can ads on heavy rotation on the radio for about the last week. They have a serious tone, and are urging people to fill out their census forms etc., and mention there are penalties for not doing so.<br /> <br /> I believe the penalty for not completing a mandatory Stat Can survey is 6 months in jail or a fine of a few thousand dollars. I honestly don't think anyone has ever been taken to court over not filling one out, even the census.<br /> <br /> Also 400,000 BC'ers is 10% of our population. That seems like a high level of non-compliance, though who knows how many usually have to be called up or visited to fill out there forms.

[Milton]

The maximum penalty is a $500 fine and/or 3 months in jail.

[canada777]

[QUOTE BY= Action-Jackson] Here in Vancouver there have been Stat Can ads on heavy rotation on the radio for about the last week. They have a serious tone, and are urging people to fill out their census forms etc., and mention there are penalties for not doing so.<br /> <br /> I believe the penalty for not completing a mandatory Stat Can survey is 6 months in jail or a fine of a few thousand dollars. I honestly don't think anyone has ever been taken to court over not filling one out, even the census.<br /> <br /> Also 400,000 BC'ers is 10% of our population. That seems like a high level of non-compliance, though who knows how many usually have to be called up or visited to fill out there forms.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> OK, good to know. I suspect they only charge a handful of people to make an example of them to others. Thanks for the info.

[4Canada]

So what I'm finding rather telling is... If Statscan knows how many people have yet to fill out the form, they know everything they NEED to know PRIOR to doing the census. Anything else they put on that form is just invasion of privacy.