[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE by rearguard] The <i>Statistics Act</i> casts a very broad and highly subjective limit on what questions may be asked […][/QUOTE]<br /> Absolutely true. If getting the <i>Statistics Act</i> amended to limit its scope and reach is a primary concern for you [plural], then let your MP know — particularly if it be of such importance that you’d vote for someone else over this issue in the next election.

[B-verLu-ver]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan Absolutely true. If getting the <i>Statistics Act</i> amended to limit its scope and reach is a primary concern for you [plural], then let your MP know — particularly if it be of such importance that you’d vote for someone else over this issue in the next election.][/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> This statement misses the entire point of our boycott and of this blog. The reason for any protest is that other avenues have failed or would not affect the desired change within available time constraints. In other words, by the time we were finished writing to our MP's and by some miracle a new law were debated and passed, with all the many details it would entail, our census forms would have been a couple of <b><i>years</i></b> overdue.<br /> <br /> And oh yes, let's wait until the <i><b>next</b></i> election to sort this one out. Do you honestly believe that anyone would make this a campaign issue in <b><i>any</i></b> election? With all the other issues (or non issues) that end up on each party's campaign platform, the last thing we want to do is muddle and overshadow the census issue with a bunch of other garbage that the media inflates with attention and importance under the corrupt agenda of the establishment.<br /> <br /> Quoting malevolent laws and regurgitating tired clichés from the mainstream media, does nothing to contribute to this blog, Brother Jonathan. Thanks anyway, but your motives are highly suspect.

[rearguard]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan]If getting the <i>Statistics Act</i> amended to limit its scope and reach is a primary concern for you [plural], then let your MP know — particularly if it be of such importance that you’d vote for someone else over this issue in the next election.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You cannot be serious!<br /> <br /> If you actually think that letting "my" MP (someone who I never voted for and never will) know about my concerns will make the slightest difference, then you should go back in time and study your history to see how major issues got resolved in this country.<br /> <br /> The vote is a form of pacification only - providing a false sense that there's choice and ownership in the process of government - it is only on very rare occasions used as a forum for change.<br /> <br /> For example, a lot of people disliked Brian Mulroony and what he was doing to Canada, the vote which expelled Mulroney did nothing to reverse what Mulroney did to the country.<br /> <br /> If our democracy worked so well, then we would not have leaders running the country with only 20-25% of the eligible vote (Harper has only 23%), and we would not be descending into a state of fascism as we speak. Things have become worse not better over the decades despite many thousands of letters being written to "our" MP's.<br /> <br /> Finally, I should NOT have to bow to any "elected" official regaurding my fundamental rights as a human being who wishes only to mind my own business. According to the Charter, I am supposed to be a free man. living in a free country.<br /> <br /> While everone else may live with the lies of "freedom", I won't - at least I'll try and be as free as I can get away with.<br />

[Brother Jonathan]

<b>B-verLu-ver</b>,<br /> <br /> I agree with your reasons for any protest. I am not suggesting acting with your vote as a substitute for your boycott; I am suggesting acting with your vote <i>in addition to</i> your boycott.<br /> <br /> I think that it was in October 2003 that word of Lockheed Martin’s involvement with the census first appeared in the mainstream press. If I remember correctly, there were <i>two</i> elections between then and May 2006, a period of 2 ½ years. Are you suggesting that that wasn’t enough time to make your views known to your MP (or possibly your succession of three MPs) in Ottawa? That it wasn’t enough time for one existing law to be amended?<br /> <br /> Do I believe that any <i>candidate</i> would make it a campaign issue? Unless that candidate knows in no uncertain terms that it is of prime concern to his constitutents, no. Why should he if he doesn’t realise its importance to his riding? That is why I suggested letting your MP know just how vital an issue it is for you.<br /> <br /> As one can read above, I linked to the text of the law and summarised its content in response to the questions of Dr Caleb and kouan respectively. Would it have been a greater contribution to have left their questions unanswered?<br /> <br /> I must admit that I am curious — what do you suspect my motives are?<br /> <br /> <hr><br /> <b>rearguard</b>,<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060731004904938#c56156">you yourself stated</a> just this past Friday<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by rearguard] […] the census should be a good thing for Canadians overall. Only StatsCan’s insolence, and its virtually unlimited “green light” to probe into every facet of our lives no matter if we like it or not (given a mandatory requirement backed up by fines and prison time for refusal) are to blame.<br><br>IMO someone should be fired for the mess, and the <i>Statistics Act</i> should be amended to make the census 100% voluntary.[/QUOTE]<br /> How do you get there from here without favourable action by the House of Commons? How do you get favourable action by the House of Commons without amenable MPs? How do you get amenable MPs without taking part in that pacification exercise? (I’m presuming that you wouldn’t resort to bribery and/or blackmail, even if you had the wherewithal to do so; please let me know if that presumption be unwarranted.)<br /> <br /> Which evil is the lesser: a 64.9% turnout, or an Australian-style compulsory vote? Should minority governments be banned? If so, what should the Governor-General do when no party has a majority, and no majority coalition can be formed?<br /> <br /> Should <i>being as free as one can get away with</i> be the highest aspiration of every Canadian?

[wasjod]

Who cares about politicians, they are all scumbags to begin with. Back to the issue at hand. Stupid Can recently ran an ad in the Calgary Herald on Tuesday, August 8. It was pretty much a half page ad in the city and region section which cost Stupid Can, sorry, I mean the Canadian tax payer, $5000 plus to run, for one day. We shall see if it is running in todays paper as well, another $5000 plus. Take a look at Stupid Cans ad:<br /> <br /> <br /> http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8805/censusadsc7.jpg<br /> <br /> <br /> Here is a question for all you big government lovers, please explain to me exactly how much of my money and effort belongs to you and why?<br /> <br />

[rearguard]

Brother Jonathan,<br /> <br /> The politicians coerce us with their unjust laws, therefore we must coerce them back with whatever we can get away with.<br /> <br /> Why should they listen to anything else? Not when they can still get elected with even a 10% voter turnout or less! I think it should be obvious that if there's not enough support, then no one should get elected, and the process must start again until enough support is obtained.<br /> <br /> The kind of change I'd like to see won't ever happen through a vote. Surely you must know this. Politicians never want to work themselves out of a job.<br /> <br /> As for Australia, they may have very high voter turnouts due to the insanity of a compulsory vote, however what are the spoiled ballot percentages? The ballots are secret therefore no charges can be laid against not voting.<br /> <br /> In Canada, I think that the voter turnout statistics do not include spoiled ballots, so the actually turnout may be much less than what we're being told.<br /> <br /> Do you really think that getting involved in party politics will make a difference?<br /> <br /> Note: Edited to include who I was responding to, and to add the question asked.

[wasjod]

It makes me wonder if when 2007 comes round if we will be seeing "Census 2006" ads. Cut to the future, the year 2090,<br /> <br /> "Sir, SIR! You still have not done your 2006 census! What about the children? What about the geneology?"<br /> <br /> I say what about the children because that is what everyone says when they want to pass some stupid fucking law or regulation. In Cowtown we recently had a blonde cow give a petition to silly hall to bring forward the smoking ban, her excuse, think of the children. City hall wants to fine people for spitting, the excuse, think of the children. Silly hall wants recycling to become mandatory, the excuse, think of the chidrens future. Blah, blah, blah. What we need is a Libertarian government to go and kick some ass. Boycotting the census is only the beginning, things are just getting started folks.

[rearguard]

wasjod, interesting that there's still no mention of the fines and prison time, only that you'll be forever stalked by census workers.<br /> <br /> At my end of the woods (BC), there's a lot of radio ads basically telling us the same thing as that paper ad.

[B-verLu-ver]

Seems pretty quiet on this forum for about the last week, eh? I hope that is good news?? Personally I haven't had anyone at our door for at least two weeks--knock on wood! <br /> Just for entertainment purposes,(as there have been no posts for awhile), my wife was talking to someone who asked her if she had done the census yet. She of course said "no" at which point this person said "Well the census people will come to your door" and then my wife snickered and said "Oh, believe me I know". The response was then "Well, it's against the law--You could get thrown in jail." My wife just shook her head.<br /> <br /> From the above we can conclude that the radio ads are getting through to <b>those who already completed the census before the deadline</b>. As for convincing the ones like those of us on this blog it is a waste of our tax money. And chances are, if you haven't sent in your census yet, then no amount of advertising is going to convince you to do otherwise. Chances are also that you have a very good reason that you are not doing it, and it isn't because you are <i><b>unaware</b></i> of the law or you <i><b>didn't realize it was census time</b></i>. I must laugh though at how those who sent in their forms to begin with remain just as impressionable as they were before the deadline, and upon hearing radio ads feel the need to repeat everything they've heard like pre-programmed robots.

[Dancing]

<br /> re pre-programmed robots:<br /> <br /> J.K. Galbraith: "It is far, far better and much safer to have a firm anchor in nonsense than to put out on the troubled seas of thought."

[rearguard]

<blockquote>Seems pretty quiet on this forum for about the last week, eh? I hope that is good news?? Personally I haven't had anyone at our door for at least two weeks--knock on wood!</blockquote><br /> <br /> Stats Can claims that they will begin perparing to refer the addresses of census forms that were not returned in August to the justice dept.<br /> <br /> See this press release notice from Stats Can's website:<br /> <a href="http://www42.statcan.ca/smr08/smr08_054_e.htm">Census completion is mandated by law</a><br /> <br /> <i>Beginning in August, Statistics Canada will prepare documentation for the Department of Justice identifying those households that have not completed a census form. Upon their review of the files, the Department proceeds with prosecution of refusal households.</i><br /> <br /> If they follow through, and the justice dept also follows through, we probably won't know about it for another few months. It seems that hundreds of thousands of forms went unreturned at least since this press release notice was issued on July 12. The claim was that 500,000 were unreturned in Ontario alone, so over the entire country it must have been double that number. We have no idea how effective the radio ads have been, so the number probably has dropped since, but by how much we have no idea. <br /> <br /> A few days ago I checked the "countmeout" website, and there's been nothing new posted there either.<br /> <br /> If prosecutions start, I am expecting that the MSM will remain silent about it, since they won't give us a mass media forum to broadcast the truth about this census. To this point in time, the MSM has dutifully remained silent about the protest, which is why at least 90% of the forms were returned. When I tell people why I had not returned my form, they usually are very suprised to hear about LM's involvement, and most express concern about what information they had submitted with their form. Had the MSM made this an issue, then much more than 90% would have refused.<br /> <br /> To give you an idea how insane the mandatory census law is, I don't know if a criminal record is issued with prosecutions but if so, then that will place undue hardship on some people, and supposedly if you get fined, you will still be expected to fill out the form, so if you continue to refuse, what will they do - give you a life sentence or force you into bankruptcy?<br /> <br /> For this reason alone, each census from now on should be protested. LM's involment was a good thing in that it at least got some people thinking about the real issue with the census. To me LM is a side-issue only as I've said before. The real solutuion is to make the census truely voluntary. Stats Can could still get a very high response rate by bribing people with their own money by giving say, a $50 tax break for filling it out.<br /> <br /> There's simply no justification for making the census mandatory unless you are expecting to piss people off for one reason or another.<br />

[feduppie]

Had a second visit today, from a different worker. The first was a screaming condescending harrasser. Today's was more quiet but following a script, of course.<br /> <br /> We have recently sent in the short form that was sent to our home. The woman said, after I told her it was sent in...<br /> <br /> "Oh, well, we are having trouble with our mail, so..." I cut her off because she was probably going to say i "had to" give info at the door or online. Such BS!!<br /> <br /> I said " It is sent in. Cross us off." <br /> <br /> She said, "well I don't know.... we MIGHT HAVE TO COME BACK"<br /> <br /> I said "No you won't, because we have sent it in!" GHEEESH!<br /> <br /> I have ever been so upset with a Government-sanctioned action in my life. I can't even explain it.

[wasjod]

CBC Calgary did a story on the census a few days ago, nothing about the involvement of LM was even mentioned nor was anything about anybody refusing to fill out the census. The assumption was made that the census has not been filled out in Alberta due to the high transient population of young workers. I cannot believe that my tax dollar is still being spent on this bullshit. My new excuse for not filling out the census is that I am afraid of terrorist computer hackers gaining access to my personal information so I am refusing to supply it so I don't get hurt by the "terrorists," "the evil-doers." <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Various links, <br /> <br /> http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do? ... ID=2346698<br /> <br /> <br /> http://thelondonfog.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... inues.html<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0<br /> <br /> <br /> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/676,000_Can ... ountrywide<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.fortmcmurraytoday.com/story.php?id=245282<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/ ... -late.html<br /> <br /> <br /> http://dominionpaper.ca/features/2006/0 ... esnt_.html<br /> <br /> <br /> http://ensign.ftlcomm.com/ensign2/polit ... meout.html<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.herenb.com/moncton/issues/0320/consensus.html<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.discovervancouver.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=83289<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.terminus1525.ca/node/31577<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.girl-mom.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14461&sid=02d5816ff47a1300e6bab7fbe0632b16<br /> <br /> <br />

[rearguard]

<blockquote>I have ever been so upset with a Government-sanctioned action in my life. I can't even explain it.</blockquote><br /> <br /> Generally a feeling of both anger and helplessness sets in after you realize for the first time the lie you've been living. The reality is that Canada is NOT a free country anymore, and it's getting much worse almost evey day.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-2268589_ITM">The loss of freedom in Canada</a><br /> <br /> <i>"Freedom can primarily be characterized by the absence of coercion or constraint. If a person is compelled by the state or the will of another to a course of action or inaction which he would not otherwise have chosen, he is not acting of his own volition and he cannot be said to be truly free." Chief Justice Bryan Dixon in the "Big M Drug Mart Ltd." decision.<br /> <br /> Substitute "the judiciary" for "the state" in the above quote and we realise we are not "truly free."</i><br /> <br /> Note: I did not read this book, therefore I do not know if I agree with the contents. I thought the quote was rather appropriate however.

[rearguard]

In that article you linked to, it said this<br /> <br /> <i>"Most of the people who were charged in 2001 agreed to fill out the census to avoid a criminal record. In the end, just one or two people across the country actually paid a fine."</i><br /> <br /> So now they are saying you'll get a criminal record for not filling out one of those stupid forms!<br /> <br /> They are doing a fine job of coercing us into filling the thing out, and they are saying that if you do it now, even though you are very late, you won't get fined or imprisoned. The message is "Do it now or else we'll mess you over to no end!". <br /> <br /> Yeah, to hell with your right to remain silent while minding your own business and not harming anyone in the process.<br />