[EyeBrock]

I don't believe either sides’ version without independent witnesses or credible sources who were present at the scene.

[xerxes]

And we won't know the latter as the Israelis are confiscating all the tapes from the boats.

[EyeBrock]

xerxes xerxes:

And we won't know the latter as the Israelis are confiscating all the tapes from the boats.

Always good for the ‘appearance’ of transparency. Come on, what is going on over there?

[Proculation]

They had paintball guns and they were attacked with live bullets and incendiary bombs. The soldier who got a bullet in the stomach and the other one in the knee convince me. They didn't inflected themselves that. And the stabbing ?

Come on. This was planed from the beginning by the muslims.

[N_Fiddledog]

Scape Scape:

Knives on a ship what possible use would that have been but to attack commandos boarding?

I don't know. Why don't you ask this guy?



That pic was taken on the ship.

Or if you can find him, ask this guy in the vid who's stabbing into the commando.

Scape Scape:

Had the flotilla really been armed with actual weapons there would have been dead commandos.

The way the story went the commandos came around a corner and saw the barrel of a rifle coming from behind a railing. They shouted "Gun!", and backed away for cover. Shots were fired. According to the Israelis the captain of the ship said the guns were later tossed overboard. According to the Israelis again, spent shells were found not belonging to guns used by Israeli commandos. How much of that can be verified? I don't know. All the evidence isn't out yet. Do you really want to go on record saying it's impossible. Sounds pretty plausible to me.

They also got a hold of a couple of the commandos pistols and were using them.

[Proculation]

N_Fiddledog... the antisemitics will only tell you that the videos were fabricated by Tsahal. Don't try.

[Scape]

What record Dog? The IDF is holding the tapes. The only thing we know is the blockade itself is illegal and so too is boarding a ship in international waters. Laws mean nothing here so why bother with the pretense of going on 'records'? So I will clarify my remarks here: had the intent of the flotilla truly had been that of an armed ambush to attack the IDF we would have had RPG's taking down the helicopters, not tying the rappel ropes to the ships rigging and we would have seen fully automatic assault weapons greeting the commando's not pipes and slingshots.

Their intent was to bring to the fore the very idea of Israeli sovereignty lording over Gaza who Israeli has made a vassal state. The entire idea of the blockade is to starve out and break the will of the people of Gaza. The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.

[Pseudonym]

If the blockade is intended to starve the Palestinians, why do the Israelis let in aid shipments overland? The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that it will allow in aid shipments from these parties trying to break the blockade once they inspect the shipments for contraband.

[Proculation]

15 000 to 20 000 tons metric of shipments are going to Gaza every week.

[N_Fiddledog]

Scape Scape:

What record Dog? The IDF is holding the tapes.

There's a partial record. Hopefully the complete tapes, and forensic evidence will eventually be available. Yeah, I know. I'm not holding my breath either, but more evidence will not surprise me.

Scape Scape:

The only thing we know is the blockade itself is illegal and so too is boarding a ship in international waters.

Do we really? Are you sure about that? Because my impression is the legality has still to be determined. There seems to be debate. Also it would seem that if the blockade is legal, then stopping it in international waters is legal.

I'm not sure. I only know what the CBC tells me.

$1:

What laws apply in the military seizure of a vessel in international waters?

Legal representatives will likely consult the United Nations Charter, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, the Geneva Conventions on the laws or war and the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea. The latter dates from 1994 and consolidates earlier international rules on naval warfare and naval blockades.

Was the May 31 seizure legal?

CBC News put the question to two leading experts in international law: Ed Morgan, who teaches at the University of Toronto, and Craig Scott, who teaches at York University's Osgoode Hall Law School.

"The blockade itself is legal and as part of a blockade, you are allowed to arrest a ship and bring it into port to inspect goods," Morgan said.

"You are allowed to do that in international waters … if they are steaming toward the territorial sea that you are blockading, you do not have to wait until they actually get within the territorial sea, which is quite a narrow band from the coast.

"If the blockade is justified because overall there is a military objective, not only is it legal, it is proper to take it to a port … to inspect the goods and then let the non-lethal goods pass.

Scott agrees that naval blockades of neutral ships are permitted, if it is to prevent the ships from supplying war-related materiel or even as a general economic coercion. "However," he added, "should it turn out that the blockade is … unlawful, then the general principle would be that there can be no right to enforce an unlawful blockade."

According to Scott, "the dominant legal view would seem to be that the blockade as a whole had become illegal well before the Gaza flotilla incident — and may indeed have been illegal virtually from the outset" for "reasons related to both the principle of humanity within the laws of war and that principle's interaction with contemporary international human rights law."

For Scott, another reason Israel's actions were illegal is that "traditional laws of war long ago evolved to the point of recognizing the obligation of the blockading state to inspect cargo under the supervision of a neutral party, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, in order to make sure humanitarian supplies are not seized or diverted from their intended destination."
A frame grab from a video released by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) shows what the IDF says is a pro-Palestinian activist hitting Israeli soldiers with a club-like object upon the arrival of Israeli forces to a Gaza-bound ship May 31, 2010. (REUTERS/Handout/IDF) A frame grab from a video released by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) shows what the IDF says is a pro-Palestinian activist hitting Israeli soldiers with a club-like object upon the arrival of Israeli forces to a Gaza-bound ship May 31, 2010. (REUTERS/Handout/IDF)

Morgan added: "There is a secondary question: Was the seizure of the ship carried out in a legal fashion? That goes on the rule of proportionality: Did they use more force than was necessary given the force that they were met with?

"It's not obvious what the answer is to that."

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/06/0 ... ships.html

[Proculation]

Good find N_Fiddledog.

$1:

"You are allowed to do that in international waters … if they are steaming toward the territorial sea that you are blockading, you do not have to wait until they actually get within the territorial sea, which is quite a narrow band from the coast.

[xerxes]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

If the blockade is intended to starve the Palestinians, why do the Israelis let in aid shipments overland? The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that it will allow in aid shipments from these parties trying to break the blockade once they inspect the shipments for contraband.

Because allowing the aid prevents complete starvation.

[Proculation]

xerxes xerxes:

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

If the blockade is intended to starve the Palestinians, why do the Israelis let in aid shipments overland? The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that it will allow in aid shipments from these parties trying to break the blockade once they inspect the shipments for contraband.

Because allowing the aid prevents complete starvation.

Yeah while the UN is getting foods everyday to Gaza and that a boat with arms trying to pass the blockade... It's very for the "starved" kids and women *sigh*

[N_Fiddledog]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

If the blockade is intended to starve the Palestinians, why do the Israelis let in aid shipments overland? The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that it will allow in aid shipments from these parties trying to break the blockade once they inspect the shipments for contraband.

Another thing not computed into all this enough, I think, are the smuggling tunnels between Egypt, and Gaza.

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/midd ... 90749.html

[xerxes]

Proculation Proculation:

xerxes xerxes:

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

If the blockade is intended to starve the Palestinians, why do the Israelis let in aid shipments overland? The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that it will allow in aid shipments from these parties trying to break the blockade once they inspect the shipments for contraband.

Because allowing the aid prevents complete starvation.

Yeah while the UN is getting foods everyday to Gaza and that a boat with arms trying to pass the blockade... It's very for the "starved" kids and women *sigh*

"61% of people in the Gaza Strip are … food insecure," of which "65% are children under 18 years" http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/9a265f2a909e9a1d8525772e004fc34b?OpenDocument

"Since June 2007, "the number of Palestine refugees unable to access food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water, has tripled"
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportID=89302

"in February 2009, the level of anemia in babies (9-12 months) was as high as 65.5%" http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/9a265f2a909e9a1d8525772e004fc34b?OpenDocument

Oh I'm sorry. Those must simply be examples of a Muslim plot against Israel.