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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:30 pm
 


QBC QBC:
Hmmm....they don't pay for the hydro they get from us, they don't pay for the natural gas they get from us, sell them anything? Selling implies they'll pay for it doesn't it?


If they didn't pay for the hydro why did California sue Powerex for overcharging them $850,000,000?

Powerex is 100 percent owned by BC Hydro, which is in turn 100 percent owned by the British Columbian government.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:40 pm
 


Joe_Stalin Joe_Stalin:
QBC QBC:
Hmmm....they don't pay for the hydro they get from us, they don't pay for the natural gas they get from us, sell them anything? Selling implies they'll pay for it doesn't it?


If they didn't pay for the hydro why did California sue Powerex for overcharging them $850,000,000?[quote]

Why do you go onto the many resources available on the internet and find out for yourself. Don't forget to factor "Enron" into your search query.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:43 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
QBC QBC:
Hmmm....they don't pay for the hydro they get from us, they don't pay for the natural gas they get from us, sell them anything? Selling implies they'll pay for it doesn't it?


That's kind of what I was getting at. We kept the lights on in California a few years ago, and we never got paid. Thye tried to sue BC Hydro insetad. It turned out it was Enron who hosed them, whihc BC Hydro was trying to tell them at the time. But they wouldn't listen. Adn we're still waiting for our money. But, we still send them power so "Fool you once..."


If my memory does not fail me I do believe BC Hydro settled California's $850 million price gouging suit for $300 million.
Enron was one of about 10 companies that hosed California. Powerex was ours.

And if you do not believe BC Hydro is capable of hosing let me quote a snippet to the contrary.
$1:
When it comes to setting hydro rates, I guess that's what it all really goes back to. When the Utilities Commission told the province that they had overcharged British Columbians for their hydro by, I think, 7 percent and that they should rebate that, the government went about advertising -- or B.C. Hydro did, under the direction of the government -- that they returned that money to the people. They actually didn't. It's just like the minister's talk earlier. They twisted it and turned it around to make people think that they were getting their money back, when in fact they really weren't. So they brought in a bill that said that cabinet shall have the total power of setting the power rates and that they're going to be frozen. That means that people aren't going to get anything back and that they're still going to get overcharged for their hydro. And the B.C. Utilities Commission does not have any more authority in setting rates or hearing about rates for that huge monopoly.

I guess it could go back to Powerex, where B.C. Hydro actually sells power into the U.S. market, power that's not even made available to Canadians. That's good socialist policy -- very good socialist policy. It's all done under the guise of: "This is peak power; all we're selling to the U.S. market is peak power." That's how it's explained to us. It's been explained to people across the province that no one else would buy this power because it's all short term; it's just the peak power that we're selling. But slowly the truth is coming out, and we find that more and more companies in the U.S. are buying very cheap hydro, cheaper than anyone in British Columbia pays, for five-year firm contracts. Is that peak power? I don't think that's peak power. But why wouldn't you. . . ? If you were really concerned about jobs in British Columbia, if this government really wanted to promote jobs -- and the Minister Responsible for Northern Development talked about the co-gen projects on Vancouver Island -- why would you take huge amounts of hydro out of the grid system and sell it across the border to U.S. customers for less than what anyone in British Columbia can buy it? I guess they really love the U.S. customers here. In fact, they won't even give a B.C. company the opportunity to match the price. They just plain go out and sell it.

http://www.leg.bc.ca/Hansard/36th3rd/h0728Pm3.HTM


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:50 pm
 


and furthermore...


B.C. Hydro denies that its Powerex arm knowingly participated in a conspiracy to rip off Californians. Just the same, executives at B.C. Power had to be naοve to imagine it was purely by accident that power prices in one of their major markets had soared from $250 per megawatt hour to more than $1,200 during the worst of the California crisis. Or that sales of megawatt hours had, by magic alone, nearly doubled to almost 2 billion in the space of a year before subsiding in 2001. Where was all that new demand coming from? Had California suddenly become twice as power hungry? Or was a great deal of that buying and selling fictitious?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:49 pm
 


Joe_Stalin Joe_Stalin:
and furthermore...


B.C. Hydro denies that its Powerex arm knowingly participated in a conspiracy to rip off Californians. Just the same, executives at B.C. Power had to be naοve to imagine it was purely by accident that power prices in one of their major markets had soared from $250 per megawatt hour to more than $1,200 during the worst of the California crisis. Or that sales of megawatt hours had, by magic alone, nearly doubled to almost 2 billion in the space of a year before subsiding in 2001. Where was all that new demand coming from? Had California suddenly become twice as power hungry? Or was a great deal of that buying and selling fictitious?


Your printing allegations not facts. First of all, power prices are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Maybe you tihnk BC should give its power away for free, but I'm afraid most BC residents would disagree. Scondly, regardless of any allegations of gouging are price fixing, Californians bought that power and then decided not to pay. If they had an issue wiht the price, they could have opted not to buy.

The matter is still before the courts, but five years on, no one has brought any successful suit against Powerex. Sour grapes. If you want our power--or our water--you'll have to pay. Or you could follow your avatar and just pray. :lol:





PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:52 pm
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Joe_Stalin Joe_Stalin:
and furthermore...


B.C. Hydro denies that its Powerex arm knowingly participated in a conspiracy to rip off Californians. Just the same, executives at B.C. Power had to be naοve to imagine it was purely by accident that power prices in one of their major markets had soared from $250 per megawatt hour to more than $1,200 during the worst of the California crisis. Or that sales of megawatt hours had, by magic alone, nearly doubled to almost 2 billion in the space of a year before subsiding in 2001. Where was all that new demand coming from? Had California suddenly become twice as power hungry? Or was a great deal of that buying and selling fictitious?


Your printing allegations not facts. First of all, power prices are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Maybe you tihnk BC should give its power away for free, but I'm afraid most BC residents would disagree. Scondly, regardless of any allegations of gouging are price fixing, Californians bought that power and then decided not to pay. If they had an issue wiht the price, they could have opted not to buy.

The matter is still before the courts, but five years on, no one has brought any successful suit against Powerex. Sour grapes. If you want our power--or our water--you'll have to pay. Or you could follow your avatar and just pray. :lol:


If they opted not to buy....what would BC do with the excess power? Arent they allmost obligated to sell it once it's contracted?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:03 pm
 


Nah! Let 'em drink Cola! :mrgreen:





PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:07 pm
 


BluesBud BluesBud:
Nah! Let 'em drink Cola! :mrgreen:
It's going to come down to Canada shareing her water eventually,we can either negotiate now or later when it gets to be an emergency which it will.We have the worlds largest fresh water supply and were not doing much about it.





PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:19 pm
 


spiritvoice spiritvoice:
I was under the impression that the US takes whatever it wants anyway.

Those poor slobs in Los Angeles need water for their swimming pools, don't they? And water to wash their SUV's. :x

Obviously I think our water should stay here.

What Zipperfish says is true. We are still waiting to get paid. The US has screwed Canada over that issue as well as softwoods. They cannot be trusted.

I say (in Marie Antoinette's words)

LET THEM DRINK OIL

I dont know about swimming pools and water waste in Cali but I do know most could learn a few lessons in energy conservation in some fields if they ever visited California.The technology for Alberta's wind farms came from the wind farm at windy ridge(palm springs) They also have grants for those who use solar power and fill up at a gas station and you will notice most fumes from your fill up are captured by a suction thing alongside the filler spout. We could learn a few things from our heavily polluting neighbors to the south,after all they have experience in this sort of thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:21 pm
 


ziggy ziggy:
BluesBud BluesBud:
Nah! Let 'em drink Cola! :mrgreen:
It's going to come down to Canada shareing her water eventually,we can either negotiate now or later when it gets to be an emergency which it will.We have the worlds largest fresh water supply and were not doing much about it.
I realize that. I was just kidding around.

The one of the main things we have going for us as Canadians is out natural resources. WE should deal with or sell them wisely. However past experience shows that when it comes to any negotiations with the US we tend to sell ourselves short. We came out with the short end of the stick with free trade and this will probably end up the same way. Lets not sell one of our biggest resources down the river. (pun fully intended)





PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:33 pm
 


BluesBud BluesBud:
ziggy ziggy:
BluesBud BluesBud:
Nah! Let 'em drink Cola! :mrgreen:
It's going to come down to Canada shareing her water eventually,we can either negotiate now or later when it gets to be an emergency which it will.We have the worlds largest fresh water supply and were not doing much about it.
I realize that. I was just kidding around.

The one of the main things we have going for us as Canadians is out natural resources. WE should deal with or sell them wisely. However past experience shows that when it comes to any negotiations with the US we tend to sell ourselves short. We came out with the short end of the stick with free trade and this will probably end up the same way. Lets not sell one of our biggest resources down the river. (pun fully intended)
People bitch about the price of gas and then go into the 7/11 to pay for it and spend twice as much for a liter of bottled water without blinking an eye. Still free from the tap here and just as tasty as any bottled water. Just amazes me sometimes Blue,mark my words though in 5 years water will be a big concern as will the Americans interest in our Arctic,they recognize our rights to islands but mention the water offshore and things get quiet.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:15 pm
 


If we had extra to sell, then I could see some agreement being established (big business has wanted to for years). But the fact is most of it is locked up in the tundra and far north. It's not like the southern half of Canada has plenty of water. The southern Prairies are only a small step from becoming a desert in a lot of years.

I don't want us to sell it for the simple reason that we don't have any extra to sell. Are we willing to let Edmonton or Toronto or Montreal go without water some years so we can make a few bucks?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:30 am
 


Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Joe_Stalin Joe_Stalin:
and furthermore...


B.C. Hydro denies that its Powerex arm knowingly participated in a conspiracy to rip off Californians. Just the same, executives at B.C. Power had to be naοve to imagine it was purely by accident that power prices in one of their major markets had soared from $250 per megawatt hour to more than $1,200 during the worst of the California crisis. Or that sales of megawatt hours had, by magic alone, nearly doubled to almost 2 billion in the space of a year before subsiding in 2001. Where was all that new demand coming from? Had California suddenly become twice as power hungry? Or was a great deal of that buying and selling fictitious?


Your printing allegations not facts. First of all, power prices are subject to the laws of supply and demand. Maybe you tihnk BC should give its power away for free, but I'm afraid most BC residents would disagree. Scondly, regardless of any allegations of gouging are price fixing, Californians bought that power and then decided not to pay. If they had an issue wiht the price, they could have opted not to buy.

The matter is still before the courts, but five years on, no one has brought any successful suit against Powerex. Sour grapes. If you want our power--or our water--you'll have to pay. Or you could follow your avatar and just pray. :lol:


You are saying those prices are not facts?

I am praying my memory is not faulty. What was the question again?
Never mind. Moving right along.

First of all, power prices are subject to the laws of supply and demand.

Sure.
Raising Ross dam would have given Seattle "X' amount of power in 1984.

So Hydro agrees to sell Seattle the "X" amount of power for less than $10 million a year for 80 years. In 2065 $10 million is tantamount to giving away that power for free.
Actually the treaty says 22 million a year for the first 35 years then $100k per annum for the balance. Even worse.
And when you factor in all the lakeside properties in the Skagit valley that never were.. :cry:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:58 am
 


This is coming from a U.S. citizen. DON'T SELL YOUR WATER!! Keep it, the Californians can wither and die for all I care. Too many of them are taking over my state as it is. Every year we (the country) pisses and moans about how the drought is getting worse every year. Then I see all these people that wash their SUV's every week, have swimming pools and just don't really want to be a part of the solution. I am not a big "Greenie" or anything, but we are trying to live beyond our means. We just want everything, and we want people to just give it to us, no questions asked and don't bother expecting any compensation for it. The U.S is a bully, plain and simple.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:03 am
 


By the way, I drive a little Jeep Cherokee. It is pained camouflage. I have not washed it in the year that I have owned it and you can't even tell. However, my Volvo I wash with bottled water that was Imported from Switzerland and was bottled by Swiss virgins and rubbed on their thighs before being shipped.


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