[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= Stymiest] [QUOTE BY= Crankster] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think there's anything wrong with purchasing military vehicles and technology from other countries as long as you get it for the right price. We got some subs from the UK and contrary to popular belief they will be capable of incorporating into our fleets. Germany is supposedly willing to sell a lighter version of their Leopard 2 battle tanks: something we should definetly capitalize on, seeing as how effective American tanks were in Iraq (they may have been there for the wrong reasons, but I'll be damned if they weren't effective). This does not mean we should stop manufacturing at home. A boost in military manufacturing could create some new jobs and boost our economy a little. What we need is a combination of new vehicles and new technology, some of it home produced at home and some imported from abroad. This is why our forces need increase funds.[/QUOTE] <br /> Ah,shit,Whalen,its not about buying.Its about building strength in moral and nationalpride.If i was to goto war,I would surely like to shoot,drive,screw anything Canandian then knowing my equipment was American,Russian etc. <br /> Not only moral,but,it builds a strong national economy.The more we contract to foreign entities the more jobs lost here.The more jobs lost,the more peope say fuck Canada,she don't care about her own anyway! <br /> Get off your ass and do the math![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />well then you would have a pretty hard time fighting world war II considering our equipment was all british and american designed buddy <br /> <br />Why don't you look up on the Avro Arrow perturbed. Or read some of G.L. granastein's books instead of posting your rhetorical statements here.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />1. Wrong once--Canada designed many of its ships, as well as some of its other weapons. Canada built BRitish-designed planes, but our Corvettes, which we built in the hundreds, featured Squid launchers which no other ship had at the time. <br /> <br /> <br />2. Wrong twice--You are completely uninformed, get off your high horse. I've read countless books on the Arrow--it was much more expensive to buy American jets, BECAUSE we had already spent money on the development costs. Do the math genius. <br /> <br />3. Granatstein is a conventional historian, who works for the Ameircan-funded C.D. Howe Institute dedicated to Americanizing Canada. He was picked because between moments of thoughtfulness, he was dismissive of Canadian accomplishments. His only accurate quotation I ever read was: <br /> <br />"Canada decided to harmonize its standards with the United States in the free-trade agreement. They lowered them to the American level."[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Wow we designed our own corvettes big whoopie has has this proven anything. <br /> <br />We drove around in willy's jeeps, we rode sherman tanks, we flew spitfires, hurricanes, lancasters, gloucesters, we fired stens, brens, colt 45, mark II hand grenades, we wore brit battle dress yes I am completely wrong when I said most of our military equipment was imported. Oh and on to the corvettes now. Indeed canada did build its own corvettes and this we can be prou dof but the fact is most of the technical systems in any of our vehicles anything in our ships etc was all foreign designed. <br /> <br />My point is Canada is a small country so what the hell is wrong with importing military equipment. You people seem to think a lot of our equipment should be completely home designed. DO YOU PEOPLE HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH R&D COSTS!!!!! Its not building the thing thats the problem its developing the technological capabilities to do so and with a budget of 9 billion the canadian military does not have a lot of money to spend on R&D. <br /> <br />Do you think any countries of any comparable size spend their time researching their own technology NO WAY!!!! Most military tech is from Germany, UK, France, USA. This stuff is sold off to us and we refine it to meet our own needs. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />1. Our Corvettes were um, kind of like our biggest vontribution to the war. We built 600 ships, as well as over 16,000 aircraft, but the Corvettes were the area where no country matched us in straegy or equipment. Without Canada protecting the convoys to Britain, and the additional help from India and the like, Britain falls long before the U.S. even enters the war. <br /> <br />2. R&D costs a lot, yes, but you get a lot of it back in taxes, and get it back almost completely if you nationalize the company, and don't over-extend yourself. <br /> <br />Canada has resources Europe never had, and the technical ability to design things ahead of their time for an equal or lower cost. There are many examples of this. I say build everything here. Of course, to do this requires we remove our feudal masters and replace them with a goevernment that keeps Canada's wealth in Canda, and spends it on issues of national importance.

[Perturbed]

Forgot to add, Cnaad could use an interceptor like the Arrow because our terriotry is much larger than Europe's, and depending on foreogn countries means they can withold some technology from you, as well as replacement parts. <br /> <br />The General Dynamics plant in Canada is still a foreign company.

[z_whalen]

Build and develop everything here? Ok, we'll just have to collapse our entire social security network to allocate the funding. Don't worry, it will pay off in a few decades, and we will need a strong military to keep the population from revolting as we move towards becoming a third-world country. <br /> <br />Seriously, we can't do <b>everything</b> here. We may have the resources of Russia, but we don't have the cash. Actually, just look at Russia in the cold war. They may have had a big military, but obviously the rest of their country was in shambles. Canada is not a superpower, and we can't support a superpower's army. What we need is a small, mobile, high-tech military. Again, I agree that we should give the military a bigger budget and that we should fund some of our own research and development. For starters, we could start building ships again. But we will always have to use some foreign technology. British technology may suck, American technology may be just okay, but it's better than no technology, which is what we have. Great Britain, France, Germany and the United States are our allies, that is why we depend on them. They depend on us too in many ways, but military wise we are not fulfilling our obligations and giving up more and more of our defense to America, offering nothing in return.

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] Build and develop everything here? Ok, we'll just have to collapse our entire social security network to allocate the funding. Don't worry, it will pay off in a few decades, and we will need a strong military to keep the population from revolting as we move towards becoming a third-world country. <br /> <br />Seriously, we can't do <b>everything</b> here. We may have the resources of Russia, but we don't have the cash. Actually, just look at Russia in the cold war. They may have had a big military, but obviously the rest of their country was in shambles. Canada is not a superpower, and we can't support a superpower's army. What we need is a small, mobile, high-tech military. Again, I agree that we should give the military a bigger budget and that we should fund some of our own research and development. For starters, we could start building ships again. But we will always have to use some foreign technology. British technology may suck, American technology may be just okay, but it's better than no technology, which is what we have. Great Britain, France, Germany and the United States are our allies, that is why we depend on them. They depend on us too in many ways, but military wise we are not fulfilling our obligations and giving up more and more of our defense to America, offering nothing in return.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Hahaha yeah and even Russia imported technology well secretly (stolen avionics)

[Crankster]

History is just the shit they feed you.If a country wants to be sovern and strong it must bite the bullet. <br /> Yeah,itwould take awhilebut,the whole system would prosper.

[whelan costen]

Quote by Stymiest:'Not to say that perturbed isn't a good source but granastein is a critically acclaimed Canadian historian and he has written some very good books in his day maybe you try reading one sometime instead of just taking what you see on a site like this as your opinion' <br /> <br />Stymiest I am not sure where your arrogance comes from but it is getting tiresome. If you don't respect the other posters I wonder why you care what we say. Your assumption that I haven't read 'granestein'is just that an assumption! He is also arrogant, and as mentioned is doing his best to Americanize Canada through his rhetoric, just because you state he is a well known, historian doesn't make him the expert, just because C.D. Howe says so, makes him less so in my eyes. <br /> <br />I know you assert yourself as an expert on our military, but really I have some very good inside knowledge myself, spanning many years, so please don't insult me or others in an attempt to increase your status, it isn't working. You are entitled to your opinion but please, stop telling everyone else their opinion is worthless. <br /> <br />I commend you for your enthusiasm and willingness to express yourself, but the key to becoming as wise as you claim to be, is the ability to listen, to respect others and to learn, life is a great teacher and I do not suggest that youth don't know, just that perhaps, some who have experience more, will know more. <br /> <br />If you read some of the other posts you will find out that vive has some of the wisest Canadians, with varied life experiences, even real soldiers with combat experience, who can share their knowledge and will if you stop being condescending. If you keep expressing the know it all attitude most people won't bother enlightening you, as you already know it all! <br /> <br />Just some friendly advice from one Canadian to another. Take it or leave it. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[Stymiest]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Quote by Stymiest:'Not to say that perturbed isn't a good source but granastein is a critically acclaimed Canadian historian and he has written some very good books in his day maybe you try reading one sometime instead of just taking what you see on a site like this as your opinion' <br /> <br />Stymiest I am not sure where your arrogance comes from but it is getting tiresome. If you don't respect the other posters I wonder why you care what we say. Your assumption that I haven't read 'granestein'is just that an assumption! He is also arrogant, and as mentioned is doing his best to Americanize Canada through his rhetoric, just because you state he is a well known, historian doesn't make him the expert, just because C.D. Howe says so, makes him less so in my eyes. <br /> <br />I know you assert yourself as an expert on our military, but really I have some very good inside knowledge myself, spanning many years, so please don't insult me or others in an attempt to increase your status, it isn't working. You are entitled to your opinion but please, stop telling everyone else their opinion is worthless. <br /> <br />I commend you for your enthusiasm and willingness to express yourself, but the key to becoming as wise as you claim to be, is the ability to listen, to respect others and to learn, life is a great teacher and I do not suggest that youth don't know, just that perhaps, some who have experience more, will know more. <br /> <br />If you read some of the other posts you will find out that vive has some of the wisest Canadians, with varied life experiences, even real soldiers with combat experience, who can share their knowledge and will if you stop being condescending. If you keep expressing the know it all attitude most people won't bother enlightening you, as you already know it all! <br /> <br />Just some friendly advice from one Canadian to another. Take it or leave it. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Don't worry I have taken some of your advice such as being more kind etc. I don't take your political advice though most of it seems like pure BS <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] Build and develop everything here? Ok, we'll just have to collapse our entire social security network to allocate the funding. Don't worry, it will pay off in a few decades, and we will need a strong military to keep the population from revolting as we move towards becoming a third-world country. <br /> <br />Seriously, we can't do <b>everything</b> here. We may have the resources of Russia, but we don't have the cash. Actually, just look at Russia in the cold war. They may have had a big military, but obviously the rest of their country was in shambles. Canada is not a superpower, and we can't support a superpower's army. What we need is a small, mobile, high-tech military. Again, I agree that we should give the military a bigger budget and that we should fund some of our own research and development. For starters, we could start building ships again. But we will always have to use some foreign technology. British technology may suck, American technology may be just okay, but it's better than no technology, which is what we have. Great Britain, France, Germany and the United States are our allies, that is why we depend on them. They depend on us too in many ways, but military wise we are not fulfilling our obligations and giving up more and more of our defense to America, offering nothing in return.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />We do have the cash, but I get your point. The cash is leaving the country to foreign companies, and is going to our richest 50 people. <br /> <br />Also, if we nationalized the company, we would get even more than the taxes back in return, and if the companies were private, but Canadianm, we would get more than 50% of the value back in taxes and economic activity. The problem with the Soviets was they went crazy and over-extended themselves by building WAY mor ethan they needed, and they had little skilled labour. <br /> <br />Ken Thompson (Canada's richest person) has 17 billion--that's enough to build 5 Nimitz-class aircraft carriers. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> That's enough to design a new piece of equipment in evey sector of our armed forces. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> <br /> <br />Also, check the Monday, October 18th edition of the National Post--it's got a full 2-page spread about the direction of our military. One person recommends making our army mostly a short-term, volunteer army. (or forced military service army, probably.) This would free-up tonned of cash, as most goes towards salaries and benefits--thoguh I wouldn't want to take away any needed benefits. <br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I don't think Granatstein is American-led. Unlike most Canadian historians he is willing to tell it like it is, even if it makes America look good and Canada look bad. This is the truth of things. The US isn't all bad, Canada isn't all good. Of course Canadians are going to claim that we have the moral high ground, and Americans will claim they do. That's a fact of life. But being so vehemently opposed to another country to the point that you consider anything it does is evil, this never got anyone anywhere. Basing your opposition to American actions in spite of their country is wrong. I don't agree with everything they do, but I don't hate America. Does that make me love my country any less? No. It just means that I'm willing to cooperate when I think they are doing the right thing (cough Sudan cough). So maybe everyone should get off their high horse around here and just concentrate on doing the right thing, which is not necessarily the anti-American thing.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Granatstein WORKS for the C.D. HOwe Institute which advocated ELIMINATING the border. How is that NOT American-led?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I have never said anything about eliminating our border all I am saying is this and you may take it or leave it but Canada as a middle power nation does not have the capacity to develop all its homegrown technology. We have some great soldiers who do wonderful things in this world but they are underfunded and are not recieving what they should. My eyes filled with joy when I heard Martin was increasing reg force troop levels by 5,000. When i found out it was to form a new "peacekeeping" brigade I became very p'od. Firstly Canada does not need another brigade what we need is to fully staff our current brigades so they can run at in an actual efficient manner <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br /> <br />Read my post about Canadas military needs it highlights our needs and what we require as a nation as far as military concerns are. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I think the issue is how we distribute our national wealth. Right now, we're enslaved to provate banks. This is the only reason we can't afford to develop all of our own stuff, but I agree we're not at the point where we need to do this--first step is scarpping NAFTA and diversifying our trade. <br /> <br />Then we can tell the U.S. to go away.