[badsector]

Of course, the military is more important than healthcare or education, in any fascist country.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Of course, the military is more important than healthcare or education, in any fascist country.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Actually Hitler did give his people some universal health care--healthy people work better. They were also well-educated.<br /> <br /> That said, check your facts. Education is a provincial responsibility. Military spending is a federal responsibility. <br /> <br /> Canada's health care system has been downloaded onto the provinces but we still spend a whopping 80 billion a year on health care--and only around 13 billion on defence.....80 billion to treat the extra 10 relatives every immigrant family now sponsors into the country.

[badsector]

Public healthcare is methodically ruined by right wing government. It started with Chretien/Martin, who balanced the federal books by downloading healthcare to the provinces. Continues by corrupt right wing provincial governments who downloaded the same to the municipalities. The master plan here is make public healthcare so underfunded that it can't function anymore, then "rescue it" by privatization. The only thing our healthcare needs to be best of the World again is more funding. Canada already spends enough on the armed forces. We can't do much more, since we are a small nation with a huge country. There is absolutely no way for us to defend our borders, so why even bother? Let's spend the money on healthcare instead.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] Public healthcare is methodically ruined by right wing government. It started with Chretien/Martin, who balanced the federal books by downloading healthcare to the provinces. Continues by corrupt right wing provincial governments who downloaded the same to the municipalities. The master plan here is make public healthcare so underfunded that it can't function anymore, then "rescue it" by privatization. The only thing our healthcare needs to be best of the World again is more funding. Canada already spends enough on the armed forces. We can't do much more, since we are a small nation with a huge country. There is absolutely no way for us to defend our borders, so why even bother? Let's spend the money on healthcare instead.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Mulroney started it actually. As for spending enough on our military--no we aren't. You have to spend what it takes, and we spend what, 13 or 14 billion? This does not even protect our current small fleet from rust out.<br /> <br /> As for not being able to defend our territory--we can easily with more funding defend against all but one country--the Americans as they are so close, but you don't need as big a military as theirs to defend yourself. America's military needs to be so big due to its global scope. This would not actually give them an advantage as they can't use their navy against our land, and their army is not their strength...air force is impressive yes, but spread out.<br /> <br /> I simply want us to play a role in world affairs--and defend our territory which is quite doable should we build our own equipment.....

[badsector]

[QUOTE]I simply want us to play a role in world affairs[/QUOTE]<br /> Defending oil and gas pipelines? Helping the yanks invade countries for their natural resources? This is not the type of role we should thrive for.<br /> <br /> Granted, we are members of a military alliance and don't have a lot of choices. If the bully wants to go to war, we may have to help out. Still, I think we should be more selective.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] [QUOTE]I simply want us to play a role in world affairs[/QUOTE]<br /> Defending oil and gas pipelines? Helping the yanks invade countries for their natural resources? This is not the type of role we should thrive for.<br /> <br /> Granted, we are members of a military alliance and don't have a lot of choices. If the bully wants to go to war, we may have to help out. Still, I think we should be more selective.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Defending our air space, arctic sovereignty, and coastal sovereignty. Restoring our airborne regiment. Conflicts can happen very quickly.<br /> <br /> NATO could some day be in a conflict with China and we should be ready.

[Armageddon]

Badsector, what is wrong with increasing Canada's military budget? I understand we shouldn't be spending it more than anything else, but a first world country shouldn't be treating its armed forces like they're a third world country. When you see CF-18's crashing, 40 yr old Sea King's requiring hours of maintenance for 1 hour of flight time, and our soldiers having to grab rides with American heavy transport aircraft, why do you think we don't need to finance our military more?<br /> And healthcare really doesn't need more money. At $80 billion, that's plenty enough. What the government would need to do is cut off all of the corruption and fraud that occurs. I had read that $30 billion had been claimed from frauds such as double billing and such. Money is not the answer, efficiency is.<br /> Also, how would education be threatened? Canada has excellent education centres, and always will. Supporting a military is not going to change that.

[Marcarc]

Canada DOES have 'excellent education centres', trouble is, hardly anybody can afford it. More americans per capita get a post secondary education. More meaning means lower tuition, so that canadians can actually enjoy those excellent education centres, instead of most of them being private schools for chinese and indian foreign students.<br /> <br /> You are right about efficiency and that applies to the military as well. They are hardly an engine of efficiency. Pay scales are WAY out of whack and officers eat like royalty-why can't they pack a lunch like everybody else? The same argument goes for the military as other bureaucracies-trim the fat and corruption and THEN talk about increases.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Canada DOES have 'excellent education centres', trouble is, hardly anybody can afford it. More americans per capita get a post secondary education. More meaning means lower tuition, so that canadians can actually enjoy those excellent education centres, instead of most of them being private schools for chinese and indian foreign students.<br /> <br /> You are right about efficiency and that applies to the military as well. They are hardly an engine of efficiency. Pay scales are WAY out of whack and officers eat like royalty-why can't they pack a lunch like everybody else? The same argument goes for the military as other bureaucracies-trim the fat and corruption and THEN talk about increases.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Marcarc come on, education is way more expensive even at American state universities.<br /> <br /> I do have a problem with our spots being farmed out to Chinese and Indian foreign students at such a great rate.<br /> <br /> As for the military, officers do get treated better but it has to be that way to a certain extend. Never question the efficiency of a military that operates F-18s, Sea Kings, c-130 Hercules and destroyers longer than any other nation before replacing them.

[Marcarc]

First, I didn't say anything about cost, I said the number of STUDENTS attending post secondary education is higher. However, on that other point:<br /> <br /> "Between 2000 and 2005, the average cost of tuition for students attending four-year public universities jumped 40 percent. Students paid an average of $5,491 for tuition and fees in 2005, up from $3,925 in inflation-adjusted dollars in 2000.<br /> <br /> State college tuition and fees are lowest in Florida, averaging $3,100 at four-year public colleges, and highest in Pennsylvania, averaging $8,410."<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> Clearly it is cheaper in florida to go to college than just about anywhere in Canada. The braindead university I went to in the maritimes which only offers liberal arts is now $3800, and it's one of the cheaper ones. That doesn't even include the many faculties at various universities that have been 'privatized', such as many business and computer science programs, where students pay even more. <br /> <br /> <br /> However, we can easily question the military's efficiency without questioning their competence (although anybody who has served knows you can easily do that). Just because technicians work hard at maintaining equipment doesn't mean the organization is remotely close to being efficient. Just because a guy works extra hard to make sure vehicles don't crash doesn't mean anything about the efficient operation of the military. <br /> <br /> However, truth be told I don't really care about military efficiency, I was responding to the guy who thinks SOME bureaucracies should be skinned down while another bureaucracy can simply have more cash thrown at it.<br /> <br /> As the news item says, Canada is at war, so what is the cost of that? What should money be spent on, how do you avoid generals and colonels buying limos instead of choppers, what is the purpose of the vehicles, should they simply be outsourced from other nations, should we even HAVE our military in operation X,etc. Those are question that should be answered by canadians BEFORE more money gets shovelled into the war economy.<br /> <br />

[badsector]

[QUOTE]Armageddon<br /> Badsector, what is wrong with increasing Canada's military budget?[/QUOTE]<br /> Nothing but the money will have to be taken from other areas where it's badly needed. Education and health care should take priority.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]When you see CF-18's crashin[/QUOTE]<br /> I am not aware of any CF-18s crashing but even if that happened, it also happens to well funded air forces. The US Airforce lost a transport plane today, it's canope fell off.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]And healthcare really doesn't need more money.[/QUOTE]Which country do you line in again? The Canada I need is badly inneed of investment to health care.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Also, how would education be threatened? Canada has excellent education centres, and always will. Supporting a military is not going to change that.[/QUOTE] It might if it sucks all the money away from more important areas. The US will deend us anyway, they couldn't afford to have such a long border with, say, China.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Never question the efficiency of a military that operates F-18s, Sea Kings, c-130 Hercules and destroyers longer than any other nation before replacing them.[/QUOTE]<br /> Actually, the F18s are pretty up to date aircraft. They are operated by the US airforce and navy as well. In fact, in the US Navy F18s recently replaced their aging Tomcats. There are other air forces that use F18s as well, for instance the Swiss Airforce. The C130s are still good too. The Sea Kings, khm... yes, they need to be replaced.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Perturbed<br /> NATO could some day be in a conflict with China and we should be ready.[/QUOTE]<br /> China can finish off the US within a week, without firing a shot. All they have to do is cut off the loans to the US government and seize US assets in China. The US dollar would collapse immediately, taking all the Western aconomies with them. They wouldn't be able to fight any wars for centuries to come. It's quite unfortunate that the US goverment has overlooked this obvious point, because the US corporations, who prop them up, wanted to move to China.

[Marcarc]

That's pretty scary that just because China has a little different political system people are saying 'we should be ready for a war with them'. By that logic we should be far more ready for confict with the US, we have far more disagreements with them.

[Armageddon]

[QUOTE BY= badsector]<br /> Nothing but the money will have to be taken from other areas where it's badly needed. Education and health care should take priority.[/quote]<br /> The money can be taken from the surpluses we have been receiving. As for education and healthcare, they already receive plenty of funds. Our schooling is the best, and the health care system just needs to come out with more doctors, and crack down on frauds. <br /> The military however, is in need of funds. Our soldiers shouldn't have to be tagging along with anyone if they don't have to.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]When you see CF-18's crashin<br /> I am not aware of any CF-18s crashing but even if that happened, it also happens to well funded air forces. The US Airforce lost a transport plane today, it's canope fell off.[/quote]<br /> Since 1984, they've been having one crash every year practically, with two in 1990. And those were from either taking off, or crashing while on exercise. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Which country do you line in again? The Canada I need is badly inneed of investment to health care.[/quote]<br /> Canada already invests heavily in health care. It's getting rid of the frauds that breed within the system and getting rid of the lines that consist of people who might only require minor medical attention. <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]It might if it sucks all the money away from more important areas. The US will deend us anyway, they couldn't afford to have such a long border with, say, China.[/quote]<br /> I doubt it would. We're producing surpluses that could easily fund more troops and better equipment. <br /> And why do we need protection from the U.S.? What are they going to defend us from? Iran? North Korea? Those guys are after America. And no single country but the U.S. has the capabilities to invade Canada. <br /> Again, Canada is fully capable of funding the military with more funds without endangering other fields.

[badsector]

[QUOTE]Freedom is the right of all sentient beings[/QUOTE]<br /> How do you define freedom?

[Marcarc]

How do you define sentient?<img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'>