[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= wolkoffd] Thanks, Doc. You're a good man.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> Still, I don't believe that Canada, even with the best of intentions, can change Afhanistan; countless others (British, Soviets, Americans). [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I think we can. Those others went with the intent of conquest, or with other intentions. Typical of American Modus operandi, they show up with equipment, supplies, men and say "these people don't heve indoor plumbing! Let's build them a water treatment plant!" Always with the best of intentions, mind you. <br /> <br /> Canadian Forces show up in much the same manner, but ask "What do you need?". We aren't there to conquer anyone but the Taliban. We're there to help.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]<br /> Afghans will have to do that themselves.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Absolutely. But first, the need the opportunity to make that dedision for themselves.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= wolkoffd]Meanwhile, we can be distancing ourselves from the US-led war. Otherwise, we'll be a target, just as they are...[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We are targets. Radicals; whether in the middle east, or here at home; always need targets. No amount of xenophobia on our part will change that. So long as we try to move people to self determination, those who seek to repress them will always consider us targets.<br /> <br /> It's the price we pay.<br />

[wolkoffd]

I disagree. The 'terrorists' don't go after the US because they 'hate freedom'...they do so because they hate what the US does and supports. Anyway, I wish I had your optimism...I guess time will tell which of us is right (or maybe we're both wrong).

[4Canada]

Dr. Caleb<br /> <br /> The next group of military we send to Afghanistan are not going there as peacekeepers although I don't know why I would have to say that to you? Aren't they the group going there to kill the scumbags and murderers?<br /> <br /> Wolkoffd,<br /> <br /> I agree with you fully. My history on these war issues is here on Vive already. I am dead against sending our military on what I consider janitor duty after the USA war messes. That to me is using them in a most degrading fashion. I don't know why some think that attatching them to US foreign policy gives them anything to be proud of. If I was a military person, signing up to protect my country, which I beleive is honourable, and I was sent away to be killed for the reasons given here or anywhere regarding these US made wars I would feel my country had no regard for my life or my service to it.<br /> <br /> I am of the opinion that EVERY war is driven by economics. I could not ask one of my fellow Canadians to die for my portfolio. Just couldn't.<br /> <br /> Too many on these forums call us cowards for not wanting to join the US war machine but our military has become so Americanized already that the peer pressure has turned them into "we're doing good things in these wars" mouth pieces.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= 4Canada] Dr. Caleb<br /> The next group of military we send to Afghanistan are not going there as peacekeepers although I don't know why I would have to say that to you? Aren't they the group going there to kill the scumbags and murderers?<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> 4C<br /> <br /> I hope I didn't imply they would be peacemakers <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> All troops we've sent there have been for one job.<br /> <br /> Destroy all Taliban or Al Queda they find there and to make Kahandahar safe. One of the things that they do to make things safe (when they were in Kabul, now in Kahandahar) is to make the people comfortable. Build new schools, hospitals, clear fields of mines, blow up old Soviet era arms caches'. . . <br /> <br /> It's a bigger job than just walk around or drive around and patrol for the bad guys.<br />

[coug]

[QUOTE BY= 4Canada]I am of the opinion that EVERY war is driven by economics.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Economic interests sure fan the flames. Even worse, most political leaders and corporate media lie about why we go to whatever the present war is. We get all this patriotic crap. The citizenry and the poor grunts who have to bear the pain rarely get to know what skullduggery is going on behind the scenes. You can bet your boots that people are getting rich, including Canadians, by having our troops in Afghanistan.

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= wolkoffd] Another Canadian was killed today in Afghanistan, and several others wounded. We should all pause for a moment to mourn that loss; may it be the last we must face in this pointless, indefinite occupation. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I couldn't agree with you further!<br /> <br /> Bin Laden himself offered a TRUCE today to the states!<br /> <br /> WHY ISN'T GEORGE W. BUSH ACCEPTING THAT TRUCE?<br /> <br /> I think it's time we recognize Al-Qaeda as what they are, an oppressed group fighting for freedom, justice, liberty and Nick-Berg beheadings.<br /> <br /> *you dumbassed dipshit*<br /> <br /> SOLDIERS DIE, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. THEY ALSO KILL AND HOPEFULLY IT'S A LOT OF 'MARTYRS'

[wolkoffd]

Sir,<br /> If I am not mistaken, you have just called me a 'dumbassed dipshit'. I would like to thank you most wholeheartedly for doing great disservice to your own argument, whatever it was (I cannot follow your ranting).<br /> With all due respect...

[badsector]

[QUOTE]Some Canadians feel that Afghanistan is somehow different from Iraq, because they don't have oil [/QUOTE]<br /> Yes they do. It's a lesser known fact of the war in Afghanistan that it is also fought for oil (like all US wars today, with the oil lobby running the country). The fact is that large oil deposits were discovered in Northern Afghanistan, in an area that was controlled by the anti-Taliban "Northern Alliance". Pakistani president Musharaf quickly signed a deal with the US to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan and Pakistan and load the oil to US tankers in Pakistani ports, in exchange for some royalties. There was only one problem: the oil pipeline had to go through Taliban controlled territory. This was when tthe Western media fired up the anti-Taliban propaganda and the US geared up for war. The usual terrorism crap that they fed to the unsuspecting Western audience was just the excuse for the invasion.<br /> <br /> Today the US and its allies control Kabul and enough territory in Afghanistan to build the oil pipeline. They don't wish to occupy the entire country, since there is no need for it. Our Canadian boys are there to guard US oil interests. How does it make you feel? <br /> <br /> Dr. Caleb, do you think it would be a good time to be "larger than life" and rise above the bullshit propaganda? Politics is never what it seems, you always have to dig deeper to find the truth.<br />

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= badsector] [QUOTE]Some Canadians feel that Afghanistan is somehow different from Iraq, because they don't have oil [/QUOTE]<br /> Yes they do. It's a lesser known fact of the war in Afghanistan that it is also fought for oil (like all US wars today, with the oil lobby running the country). The fact is that large oil deposits were discovered in Northern Afghanistan, in an area that was controlled by the anti-Taliban "Northern Alliance".<br /> [/quote]<br /> <br /> You mean the fields they found in the 50's? When Afghanistan still had a Monarchy?<br /> <br /> http://gisdata.usgs.net/website/afghan/oil.asp<br /> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html<br /> <br /> If it was the oil they were after, why not prop up the Monarchy?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= badsector]Our Canadian boys are there to guard US oil interests. How does it make you feel? <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Saddened. While I'm always up for a good conspiracy theory, it's disheartening that people feel our troops are nothing more than oil grubbing mercenaries. Their actions are anything but.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= badsector]<br /> Dr. Caleb, do you think it would be a good time to be "larger than life" and rise above the bullshit propaganda? Politics is never what it seems, you always have to dig deeper to find the truth.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Speaking of which, the estimated reserves of that field at today's prices are of far less value than the money spent on the war there so far. Since forces only marginally control Kabul and Kandahar in the south, and the North is basically still a free for all, which is more likely: That the pretext of going after Osama and to dispatch a corrupt evil regime in the name of global security is true; or the war is about oil, the value of which falls short of the costs is true?

[4Canada]

I do not believe that the war in Afghanistan is about global security Dr. Caleb. If you believe that then I need to ask you these two questions.<br /> <br /> 1. Had 9/11 happened in Canada do you honestly believe Canada would be fighting in Afghanistan right now?<br /> <br /> 2. Had 9/11 happened in Canada do you honestly believe that the USofA would have gone marching off on our behalf in retribution?

[badsector]

[QUOTE]That the pretext of going after Osama and to dispatch a corrupt evil regime in the name of global security is true; or the war is about oil, the value of which falls short of the costs is true?[/QUOTE]<br /> War is always about resources. It can be land, minerals, oil, or whatever but it is NEVER about spreading freedom and democracy because we care so much about people in distant lands.<br /> <br /> There are all kinds of conspiracy theories about 911 as well, please allow me to contribute one more interesting link. Go to Go to <a href="http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15051611">http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,15051611</a> and click on <b>twintowersstory.wmv</b>.<br /> <br /> To explain what I am getting at, here is an interesting quote from the boss of the German Luftwaffe in WWII, Hermann Goering:<br /> <i>"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."</i><br /> <br /> The question is: do we really want to be part of this madness?

[badsector]

[QUOTE]You mean the fields they found in the 50's? When Afghanistan still had a Monarchy?<br /> <br /> http://gisdata.usgs.net/website/afghan/oil.asp<br /> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html<br /> <br /> If it was the oil they were after, why not prop up the Monarchy?<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> 1. Back then oil wasn't anywhere near as important as it is today.<br /> 2. The US found other things to popup in Afghanistan since then, like the Mujahedin (led by Osama Bin Laden).

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= 4Canada]<br /> 1. Had 9/11 happened in Canada do you honestly believe Canada would be fighting in Afghanistan right now?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yes, and it would be far more bloody. It would be an absolutely no holes barred kind of a war.<br /> <br /> Just from our status as a Commonwealth country, all other Commonwealth countries would have come to our aid. India, Austrailia, Britan etc. Not to mention our NATO allies, such as Germany and France. The world would have been all for the war as well. <br /> <br /> Canada does not have a reputation for the kind of behaviour most attribute to the reasons behind 9/11, so a unprovoked attack would have been seen much more like a Pearl Harbour 'sneak attack', or Germany's invasion of Poland. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= 4Canada]<br /> 2. Had 9/11 happened in Canada do you honestly believe that the USofA would have gone marching off on our behalf in retribution?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Absolutely. To quote a former Canadian Ambassador to the US (whom I can't remember the name of right now...): "The US does not defend soil based on alliances, it does so out of it's own self interest. Which is more predictable anyhow."<br /> <br /> Even if the attack had been against us, we are still a NATO member, the the US is obliged to stand behind us if we are attacked.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= badsector]<br /> War is always about resources. It can be land, minerals, oil, or whatever but it is NEVER about spreading freedom and democracy because we care so much about people in distant lands.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> So, how do you explain WW2? Was it not about stopping a brutal fascist from dominating Europe, and possibly beyond? Was his goal (if not his excuse) not the complete subservience of all non-aryan peoples?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= badsector]<br /> There are all kinds of conspiracy theories about 911 as well, please allow me to contribute one more interesting link. Go to [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Yea, I've seen most of them. Few of them have that ring of truth to them. Some of the ones I've read suffer from a huge logical fallicy or two. But there are a few good ones out there.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= badsector]<br /> The question is: do we really want to be part of this madness?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We are part of this war. Afghanistan, unlike Iraq, has not changed it's spots, although the conspiriacy folks would have you believe otherwise. <br /> <br /> 1) Remove or capture Osama, put him on trial for worldwide terrorist acts if possible.<br /> <br /> 2) Remove the Taliban from power. Restore a democratic government to Afghanistan. Restore Afghanistan to pre-Soviet invation conditions.<br /> <br /> Look back on my post in this thread about Zarminia if you have any second thoughts that the Taliban needed to be removed. 9/11 was just the catalyst for the world to act.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= badsector]<br /> 1. Back then oil wasn't anywhere near as important as it is today.<br /> 2. The US found other things to popup in Afghanistan since then, like the Mujahedin (led by Osama Bin Laden).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> 1. Then why discuss it now as a possible ulterior motive for 'a pointless occupation of Afghanistan'? If it wasn't important 50 years ago or even after the Soviets left in 89, and is of no cost vs benefit now; it's a red herring.<br /> <br /> 2. The Mujahadeen were the result of the Soviet Invasion. Osama is the unintended concequence of the USs' interference in Afghanistan. One thing all the Osama conspiracy theories forget is; if Osama didn't do 9/11, why would he say he was responsible? Why turn himself into the most wanted man in the solar system?<br />

[Milton]

Since when is a badly done video tape excepted as evidence point blank, no questions allowed to be asked? The biggest conspiracy theory concerning Sept 11, 2001 is the one that alleges that 19 suicidal Arabs armed with box cutters took over commercial jet flights and performed acrobatic aerial feats of flying, resulting in the destruction of the WTC complex and a portion of the Pentagon, even though none of them were capable of flying.

[Dr Caleb]

"Canadian soldiers are ready to kill and die in Afghanistan if need be to keep that country from ever again becoming a nest for terrorists, says the general who will command the troops in Kandahar."<br /> <br /> <a href='http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20060203/AFGHAN03/TPInternational/Asia'>Link</a>.