[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] <br /> I wasn't finding fault with your figures in the sense that they are wrong. I just found it interesting how you condemned those numbers (as in billions spent on immigration) to rumour when I cite them yet you support my citation with numbers of your own. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I condemned your quotation to rumour because you did not provide links or sources. Yes, my numbers actually ended up agreeing with yours. I didn't say your were wrong, I said you were not providing any evidence to support them. As well, you kept claiming that the government doesn't publish such figures; I had no problems proving that statement wrong. <br /> <br /> Further, it is easy to find breakdowns of that 1 billion dollar figure by following the links, which means a more informed debate by both sides.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris]Unproductive is a little harsh a word to describe these people. I mean, they support their families emotionally, reduce stress, help raise the children in the family (which is especially needed with immigrants who are often forced to work harder than native-born Canadians, and with the high cost of day care, et cetera), and volunteer in community organizations that more "productive" immigrants don't have time for. Look at this from a humanitarian point of view: if you're children and grandchildren all emmigrated to a land far far away, and you're left alone, wouldn't you want to join them? Besides, the more people in a household, the more staples the family needs to buy, the more we collect in GST and PST (in some provinces), and the more people in a family, the more room they need, the bigger dwelling (or dwellings) they move into, the more rent/property tax is paid. These people do bring in revenue for the government, you just need to look at the bigger picture.[/QUOTE]<br /> Let's see if I get your "big picture" right. You're saying we should flood the country with immigrant granparent nannies for low wage immigrants which we have already paid through the nose to integrate and their children which are also dependant on the system until they start earning high wages. So when exactly will we see an ROI on this investment? In 350 years?<br /> <br /> You, Sir, may take immigration in this country for granted. My ancestry goes back to the first colonies on this land and documented testimony of it has been kept and updated throughout the centuries. They have eaten crow and busted their backs to make this land the prosperous region of the world it is today. They did not immigrate when times were tough, they stuck around and suffered for us. I will fight to my last heartbeat to prevent ungrateful immigrants and greedy politicians from ruining it through self-serving political abuse with my tax dollars, such as I'm seeing now. Sorry, but until Québec opts out of this abuse, I will not accept it.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] You, Sir, may take immigration in this country for granted. My ancestry goes back to the first colonies on this land and documented testimony of it has been kept and updated throughout the centuries. They have eaten crow and busted their backs to make this land the prosperous region of the world it is today. They did not immigrate when times were tough, they stuck around and suffered for us. I will fight to my last heartbeat to prevent ungrateful immigrants and greedy politicians from ruining it through self-serving political abuse with my tax dollars, such as I'm seeing now. Sorry, but until Québec opts out of this abuse, I will not accept it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Really? Were you actually there centuries ago? Did you personally build this country? I mean, feel proud about your ancestors, but do not take credit for what they did, because you didn't do it. I'm sure your ancestors did a lot of bad things too at some point in history.<br /> <br /> I pity you, really, that you cannot see beyond your narrow view of what immigrants are, and what this country and its cultures are. If you're going to barricade yourself in this limited view of yours, there's nothing I can really say to get you out. Immigrants are people, and if you're not going to accept that, you're going to miss out on a lot of really good relationships that can develop. But hey, if you're afraid of people in turbans, or people with darker skin, well that's your problem, isn't it?<br /> <br /> You have a choice: you can see people as a race, a religion, a culture, or a language and divide people into categories based on that, or you can see people as individual members of the human race.<br /> <br /> Sure, you can try to protect your Quebec culture from immigrants, but it's still going to change. You can't shut off the world. I mean, the culture of Quebec today is vastly different from the culture of Quebec fifty years ago. We can't we all just admit that culture is not a static thing, but that it is always evolving.<br /> <br /> And yes, immigration will cost money, and it will bring in money. There will be problems, and there will be rewards. Immigration is important to this counrty, and important to Quebec. If you can't, or refuse to understand that, well, I have to again say I feel sorry for you; life is more than money and politics.

[samuel]

lesouris, I'm truly sorry you should come here with open arms and take it for granted. I'm truly disappointed you feel those who accepted you are racist for wanting immigration to be managed with an ounce of responsibility. Most of all though, I'm afraid it is people like you who will ruin immigration altogether.<br /> <br /> And btw lesouris, immigration in Québec is well managed. Immigrants freely adopt Québec culture here, it is truly a beautiful thing to see. What's even more pleasant is seeing Québecers take part in the cultural heritage they bring with them with curiosity and enthusiasm.<br /> <br /> What's ugly is seeing immigrants in the ROC fighting against their adopting land in courts, legislature and everywhere they can complain about it. What's scary as hell is the very first post in this thread. I am disgusted that you and other immigrants have learned to play the "racist" card and manipulate polititians, it is undermining the very well intentionned purpose of immigration.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] lesouris, I'm truly sorry you should come here with open arms and take it for granted. I'm truly disappointed you feel those who accepted you are racist for wanting immigration to be managed with an ounce of responsibility. Most of all though, I'm afraid it is people like you who will ruin immigration altogether.<br /> <br /> And btw lesouris, immigration in Québec is well managed. Immigrants freely adopt Québec culture here, it is truly a beautiful thing to see. What's even more pleasant is seeing Québecers take part in the cultural heritage they bring with them with curiosity and enthusiasm.<br /> <br /> What's ugly is seeing immigrants in the ROC fighting against their adopting land in courts, legislature and everywhere they can complain about it. What's scary as hell is the very first post in this thread. I am disgusted that you and other immigrants have learned to play the "racist" card and manipulate polititians, it is undermining the very well intentionned purpose of immigration.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I'm not an immigrant. As a matter of fact, my ancestry goes back the United Empire Loyalists who arrived in Ontario shortly after the Revolution in the south. My family tree also extends back to the Highland clearences in Scotland, the potato famine in Ireland, and the Netherlands. You may have been misled because I believe I mentioned that some of my family were immigrants in an earlier post. It's true, my family has many immigrants in it from Italy, Iceland, India, Venezuela, and Britain - however, it has been four generations since anyone of my direct ancestors immigrated here, and many more generations in most of the branches of my family tree.<br /> <br /> I just don't see anything harmful in a multicultural society, and you're not going to change my mind about that. I'm not going to change your mind either, so what's the point in furthering this discussion?<br /> <br /> I would just like to add one thing; at this point in time, in places like Toronto and Vancouver, the cost of assimilating immigrants would far outweigh the cost of integrating them.

[samuel]

Yes I did misunderstand you and thought you were a recent immigrant. In that case, I'm sorry you support the kind of mismangement we're seeing at the moment and frankly don't understand how you can. There are a myriad of deserving countries out there. Why you and government feel 1 million Indos is not enough already is beyond my comprehension. Unless of course you're looking for votes.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= Samuel] You, Sir, may take immigration in this country for granted. My ancestry goes back to the first colonies on this land and documented testimony of it has been kept and updated throughout the centuries. They have eaten crow and busted their backs to make this land the prosperous region of the world it is today. They did not immigrate when times were tough, they stuck around and suffered for us. I will fight to my last heartbeat to prevent ungrateful immigrants and greedy politicians from ruining it through self-serving political abuse with my tax dollars, such as I'm seeing now. Sorry, but until Québec opts out of this abuse, I will not accept it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Really? Were you actually there centuries ago? Did you personally build this country? I mean, feel proud about your ancestors, but do not take credit for what they did, because you didn't do it. I'm sure your ancestors did a lot of bad things too at some point in history.<br /> <br /> I pity you, really, that you cannot see beyond your narrow view of what immigrants are, and what this country and its cultures are. If you're going to barricade yourself in this limited view of yours, there's nothing I can really say to get you out. Immigrants are people, and if you're not going to accept that, you're going to miss out on a lot of really good relationships that can develop. But hey, if you're afraid of people in turbans, or people with darker skin, well that's your problem, isn't it?<br /> <br /> You have a choice: you can see people as a race, a religion, a culture, or a language and divide people into categories based on that, or you can see people as individual members of the human race.<br /> <br /> Sure, you can try to protect your Quebec culture from immigrants, but it's still going to change. You can't shut off the world. I mean, the culture of Quebec today is vastly different from the culture of Quebec fifty years ago. We can't we all just admit that culture is not a static thing, but that it is always evolving.<br /> <br /> And yes, immigration will cost money, and it will bring in money. There will be problems, and there will be rewards. Immigration is important to this counrty, and important to Quebec. If you can't, or refuse to understand that, well, I have to again say I feel sorry for you; life is more than money and politics.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> What are you talking about? Of course you can shut out the world. It's a choice. We're so stupid that during the SARS outbreak in Toronto our leaders were to politically correct to stop flights from China. Duh.<br /> <br /> You've inadvertently touched on an important thing--individual liberty does not take into account the fact that people are not the same--that they live in groups.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= lesouris]Unproductive is a little harsh a word to describe these people. I mean, they support their families emotionally, reduce stress, help raise the children in the family (which is especially needed with immigrants who are often forced to work harder than native-born Canadians, and with the high cost of day care, et cetera), and volunteer in community organizations that more "productive" immigrants don't have time for. Look at this from a humanitarian point of view: if you're children and grandchildren all emmigrated to a land far far away, and you're left alone, wouldn't you want to join them? Besides, the more people in a household, the more staples the family needs to buy, the more we collect in GST and PST (in some provinces), and the more people in a family, the more room they need, the bigger dwelling (or dwellings) they move into, the more rent/property tax is paid. These people do bring in revenue for the government, you just need to look at the bigger picture.[/QUOTE]<br /> Let's see if I get your "big picture" right. You're saying we should flood the country with immigrant granparent nannies for low wage immigrants which we have already paid through the nose to integrate and their children which are also dependant on the system until they start earning high wages. So when exactly will we see an ROI on this investment? In 350 years?<br /> <br /> You, Sir, may take immigration in this country for granted. My ancestry goes back to the first colonies on this land and documented testimony of it has been kept and updated throughout the centuries. They have eaten crow and busted their backs to make this land the prosperous region of the world it is today. They did not immigrate when times were tough, they stuck around and suffered for us. I will fight to my last heartbeat to prevent ungrateful immigrants and greedy politicians from ruining it through self-serving political abuse with my tax dollars, such as I'm seeing now. Sorry, but until Québec opts out of this abuse, I will not accept it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I agree with you Samuel, but remember, Quebec already controls its own immigration. Separation will not protect us from liberal elitists.

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] I condemned your quotation to rumour because you did not provide links or sources. Yes, my numbers actually ended up agreeing with yours. I didn't say your were wrong, I said you were not providing any evidence to support them. As well, you kept claiming that the government doesn't publish such figures; I had no problems proving that statement wrong.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> One upon a time people would enlighten themselves by reading books. These books were located in buildings called libraries. Some of these books presented arguments with references located in the endnotes or footnotes, in its bibliography and selected bibliography. In our universe nothing is true unless it can be liked to some place on the internet.<br /> <br /> Controlled immigration is good for all countries. <b>The problem with Canada is that we import too many immigrants.</b> In yesterday's Toronto Star, editorial writer and immigration supporter, Carol Goar, quoted current immigration minister Joe Volpe who recognized that Canada has more engineers in its labour market than it can employ. Canada imports the same number of engineers as those who graduate from its many engineering programs. Canada's engineering labour market has been flooded due to an immigration policy operating on assumption as opposed to foresight developed by study and debate. And how many careers have been hindered or siderailed, whose lives have been put on hold due to an irresponsible policy that did more to hurt those it supposedly benefited (not including politicians, immigration lawyers, neo colonialist ethnic community leaders, social workers, etc.)? One can recall the 1990's where Canada was in danger of suffering a shortage of technologists, IT specialists, web deisgners, etc. That was until the .com bubble bursted. The point is <b>our immigration policy is supported by assumptions and not debated facts.</b> Volpe conceeds that our immigration policy does in not prepared to meet labour market needs.<br /> <br /> In the same Goar piece Volpe conceeds that our points system is "elitist" meaning that it is designed to keep the thrid world poor out and allow the third world rich in. Many immigrants who come to this country lived the good life before they arrived here only to find their greedy aspirations shattered due to an immigration policy that lied to them and continues to lie to the Canadian public. <b>Joe Volpe realizes now what many critics, myself included, have been saying all along: "We secure - some would even say steal - someone else's investment, then we don't even use it in Canada."</b> This is Canada's practice and encouragment of a third world brain drain and like third world natural resources Canada mines and extract the human resources that the third world desperatly needs for develpment and self reliance. Funny thing is, many third world immigrants in Canada have no problem with this. You do need people to build colonies though. <br /> <br /> Volpe acknowledges that our system should be revamped to address labour needs. These needs would address a skilled trade shortage. I am certain this would meet opposition because most of these skilled tradesmen would be European (i.e. white and therefore a racist policy). This would come, of course, from elitist opinion, many of them third world immigrants themselves, who do not see the racism and discrimnation in our current immigration policy that benefited them.<br /> <br /> <b>Canada needs to decrease it immigrant intake to more mangeable numbers (between 60-80,000 by my estimates)</b>. These numbers should address labour market needs. That being said these immigrants should not be allowed into the county unless they have a job offer prior to their arrival. <b>Family reunification should only be restricted to spouses and dependent children and to a lesser extent to dependent parents.</b> Any other relative should apply as independents. This means no sponsoring uncles, aunts, nephews, great uncles, etc. This would put an end to the abuse of our family reunification plan or chain migration as it is called where you bring in one person and soon you have the whole village living in your country. Volpe won't do this however. A vote is a vote aferall.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= jesse] I condemned your quotation to rumour because you did not provide links or sources. Yes, my numbers actually ended up agreeing with yours. I didn't say your were wrong, I said you were not providing any evidence to support them. As well, you kept claiming that the government doesn't publish such figures; I had no problems proving that statement wrong.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> One upon a time people would enlighten themselves by reading books. These books were located in buildings called libraries. Some of these books presented arguments with references located in the endnotes or footnotes, in its bibliography and selected bibliography. In our universe nothing is true unless it can be liked to some place on the internet.<br /> <br /> Controlled immigration is good for all countries. <b>The problem with Canada is that we import too many immigrants.</b> In yesterday's Toronto Star, editorial writer and immigration supporter, Carol Goar, quoted current immigration minister Joe Volpe who recognized that Canada has more engineers in its labour market than it can employ. Canada imports the same number of engineers as those who graduate from its many engineering programs. Canada's engineering labour market has been flooded due to an immigration policy operating on assumption as opposed to foresight developed by study and debate. And how many careers have been hindered or siderailed, whose lives have been put on hold due to an irresponsible policy that did more to hurt those it supposedly benefited (not including politicians, immigration lawyers, neo colonialist ethnic community leaders, social workers, etc.)? One can recall the 1990's where Canada was in danger of suffering a shortage of technologists, IT specialists, web deisgners, etc. That was until the .com bubble bursted. The point is <b>our immigration policy is supported by assumptions and not debated facts.</b> Volpe conceeds that our immigration policy does in not prepared to meet labour market needs.<br /> <br /> In the same Goar piece Volpe conceeds that our points system is "elitist" meaning that it is designed to keep the thrid world poor out and allow the third world rich in. Many immigrants who come to this country lived the good life before they arrived here only to find their greedy aspirations shattered due to an immigration policy that lied to them and continues to lie to the Canadian public. <b>Joe Volpe realizes now what many critics, myself included, have been saying all along: "We secure - some would even say steal - someone else's investment, then we don't even use it in Canada."</b> This is Canada's practice and encouragment of a third world brain drain and like third world natural resources Canada mines and extract the human resources that the third world desperatly needs for develpment and self reliance. Funny thing is, many third world immigrants in Canada have no problem with this. You do need people to build colonies though. <br /> <br /> Volpe acknowledges that our system should be revamped to address labour needs. These needs would address a skilled trade shortage. I am certain this would meet opposition because most of these skilled tradesmen would be European (i.e. white and therefore a racist policy). This would come, of course, from elitist opinion, many of them third world immigrants themselves, who do not see the racism and discrimnation in our current immigration policy that benefited them.<br /> <br /> <b>Canada needs to decrease it immigrant intake to more mangeable numbers (between 60-80,000 by my estimates)</b>. These numbers should address labour market needs. That being said these immigrants should not be allowed into the county unless they have a job offer prior to their arrival. <b>Family reunification should only be restricted to spouses and dependent children and to a lesser extent to dependent parents.</b> Any other relative should apply as independents. This means no sponsoring uncles, aunts, nephews, great uncles, etc. This would put an end to the abuse of our family reunification plan or chain migration as it is called where you bring in one person and soon you have the whole village living in your country. Volpe won't do this however. A vote is a vote aferall.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I think that you and I do see eye-to-eye on some things. I too believe that Joe Volpe is right in saying our point system is elitist; I agree that there are problems with the immigration system. However, I think that these problems can be attacked by redesigning our current one-size-fits-all immigration strategy that results in too many engineers for instance, because engineers score high on the test.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> I'm not an immigrant. As a matter of fact, my ancestry goes back the United Empire Loyalists who arrived in Ontario shortly after the Revolution in the south. My family tree also extends back to the Highland clearences in Scotland, the potato famine in Ireland, and the Netherlands. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> While you yourself are not an immigrant, your ancestors *were*. It's just a matter of WHEN they immigrated; just because yours arrived earlier does not mean they should be treated any different than those who are only now coming to Canada. <br /> <br /> When your ancestors immigrated, Canada had no industry, no infrastructure, and a GDP close to zero. Somehow Canada survived the arrival of those Royalists and many like them, even though there were not enough jobs, houses, or community services to support them. The same is true for 'modern' immigrants.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> I'm not an immigrant. As a matter of fact, my ancestry goes back the United Empire Loyalists who arrived in Ontario shortly after the Revolution in the south. My family tree also extends back to the Highland clearences in Scotland, the potato famine in Ireland, and the Netherlands. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> While you yourself are not an immigrant, your ancestors *were*. It's just a matter of WHEN they immigrated; just because yours arrived earlier does not mean they should be treated any different than those who are only now coming to Canada. <br /> <br /> When your ancestors immigrated, Canada had no industry, no infrastructure, and a GDP close to zero. Somehow Canada survived the arrival of those Royalists and many like them, even though there were not enough jobs, houses, or community services to support them. The same is true for 'modern' immigrants.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Hey, I'm on your side, dude. I would like as many immigrants to come here as possible; the more the merrier. my ancestors didn't have to pass a point test to get here, I don't think immigrats today should either.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= jesse] I condemned your quotation to rumour because you did not provide links or sources. Yes, my numbers actually ended up agreeing with yours. I didn't say your were wrong, I said you were not providing any evidence to support them. As well, you kept claiming that the government doesn't publish such figures; I had no problems proving that statement wrong.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> One upon a time people would enlighten themselves by reading books. These books were located in buildings called libraries. Some of these books presented arguments with references located in the endnotes or footnotes, in its bibliography and selected bibliography. In our universe nothing is true unless it can be liked to some place on the internet.<br /> <br /> Controlled immigration is good for all countries. <b>The problem with Canada is that we import too many immigrants.</b> In yesterday's Toronto Star, editorial writer and immigration supporter, Carol Goar, quoted current immigration minister Joe Volpe who recognized that Canada has more engineers in its labour market than it can employ. Canada imports the same number of engineers as those who graduate from its many engineering programs. Canada's engineering labour market has been flooded due to an immigration policy operating on assumption as opposed to foresight developed by study and debate. And how many careers have been hindered or siderailed, whose lives have been put on hold due to an irresponsible policy that did more to hurt those it supposedly benefited (not including politicians, immigration lawyers, neo colonialist ethnic community leaders, social workers, etc.)? One can recall the 1990's where Canada was in danger of suffering a shortage of technologists, IT specialists, web deisgners, etc. That was until the .com bubble bursted. The point is <b>our immigration policy is supported by assumptions and not debated facts.</b> Volpe conceeds that our immigration policy does in not prepared to meet labour market needs.<br /> <br /> In the same Goar piece Volpe conceeds that our points system is "elitist" meaning that it is designed to keep the thrid world poor out and allow the third world rich in. Many immigrants who come to this country lived the good life before they arrived here only to find their greedy aspirations shattered due to an immigration policy that lied to them and continues to lie to the Canadian public. <b>Joe Volpe realizes now what many critics, myself included, have been saying all along: "We secure - some would even say steal - someone else's investment, then we don't even use it in Canada."</b> This is Canada's practice and encouragment of a third world brain drain and like third world natural resources Canada mines and extract the human resources that the third world desperatly needs for develpment and self reliance. Funny thing is, many third world immigrants in Canada have no problem with this. You do need people to build colonies though. <br /> <br /> Volpe acknowledges that our system should be revamped to address labour needs. These needs would address a skilled trade shortage. I am certain this would meet opposition because most of these skilled tradesmen would be European (i.e. white and therefore a racist policy). This would come, of course, from elitist opinion, many of them third world immigrants themselves, who do not see the racism and discrimnation in our current immigration policy that benefited them.<br /> <br /> <b>Canada needs to decrease it immigrant intake to more mangeable numbers (between 60-80,000 by my estimates)</b>. These numbers should address labour market needs. That being said these immigrants should not be allowed into the county unless they have a job offer prior to their arrival. <b>Family reunification should only be restricted to spouses and dependent children and to a lesser extent to dependent parents.</b> Any other relative should apply as independents. This means no sponsoring uncles, aunts, nephews, great uncles, etc. This would put an end to the abuse of our family reunification plan or chain migration as it is called where you bring in one person and soon you have the whole village living in your country. Volpe won't do this however. A vote is a vote aferall.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Volpe can't call the shots, yeah....funny how he says a different hting in public than in private.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> I'm not an immigrant. As a matter of fact, my ancestry goes back the United Empire Loyalists who arrived in Ontario shortly after the Revolution in the south. My family tree also extends back to the Highland clearences in Scotland, the potato famine in Ireland, and the Netherlands. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> While you yourself are not an immigrant, your ancestors *were*. It's just a matter of WHEN they immigrated; just because yours arrived earlier does not mean they should be treated any different than those who are only now coming to Canada. <br /> <br /> When your ancestors immigrated, Canada had no industry, no infrastructure, and a GDP close to zero. Somehow Canada survived the arrival of those Royalists and many like them, even though there were not enough jobs, houses, or community services to support them. The same is true for 'modern' immigrants.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> By that rationale Jesse, everyone is an immigrant. It is impossible to be an immigrant in a country you found, and Canada was founded by Europeans. By your rationalte even the natives are immigrants.<br /> <br /> I think what we are talking about is the dramatic shift in policy that took place in the 1960s.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> I'm not an immigrant. As a matter of fact, my ancestry goes back the United Empire Loyalists who arrived in Ontario shortly after the Revolution in the south. My family tree also extends back to the Highland clearences in Scotland, the potato famine in Ireland, and the Netherlands. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> While you yourself are not an immigrant, your ancestors *were*. It's just a matter of WHEN they immigrated; just because yours arrived earlier does not mean they should be treated any different than those who are only now coming to Canada. <br /> <br /> When your ancestors immigrated, Canada had no industry, no infrastructure, and a GDP close to zero. Somehow Canada survived the arrival of those Royalists and many like them, even though there were not enough jobs, houses, or community services to support them. The same is true for 'modern' immigrants.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Hey, I'm on your side, dude. I would like as many immigrants to come here as possible; the more the merrier. my ancestors didn't have to pass a point test to get here, I don't think immigrats today should either.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> "The more the merrier". I wish I still agreed with you. I respect your right to disagree with me.