[Dino]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed]"Reach out more to immigrants"?! We already give them much more funding for housing and education that we do native-born Canadians. We have government hiring quotas. We have an official policy of non-assimilation. We let their aging relatives relocate and vote Liberal.<br /> <br /> If you can't imagine Toronto without multiculturalism than you can't imagine Canada of the 1950s--when we had our highest standard of living.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That's not true immigrants are most likely to eat from food banks leave in poor housing and have the highest tuition costs. Pertrubed what do you think Canada would be like if all immigrants stopped working for 3 weeks. Good bye to our health care system and our professors at the university.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= dino]That's not true immigrants are most likely to ... have the highest tuition costs.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Except that many immigrants come to canadian universities *before* immigrating. While here, they are paying triple or quadruple the tuition that canadian students are, since they are "international students". I assume you were making a reference to them being in professional degrees and thus paying higher tuition; quadruple *that* for international students. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6231">http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6231</a><br /> <br /> <br /> Regarding your other claims, I would like to see supporting evidence for those as well.

[Dino]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= dino]That's not true immigrants are most likely to ... have the highest tuition costs.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Except that many immigrants come to canadian universities *before* immigrating. While here, they are paying triple or quadruple the tuition that canadian students are, since they are "international students". I assume you were making a reference to them being in professional degrees and thus paying higher tuition; quadruple *that* for international students. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6231">http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6231</a><br /> <br /> <br /> Regarding your other claims, I would like to see supporting evidence for those as well. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Immigrants are most likely to be using food banks in Ontario I should have mentioned. It's been reported recently if you look you would find it.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= dino] <br /> Immigrants are most likely to be using food banks in Ontario I should have mentioned. It's been reported recently if you look you would find it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Ah, but it is your argument in this debate, and thus the burden of proof lies on you. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.northyorkharvestfoodbank.com/Resource%20Centre/Research/food_bank_report.htm"><br /> Here's a supporting link</a>, but I expect you to support your own assertions in future!<br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> "Reach out more to immigrants"?! We already give them much more funding for housing and education that we do native-born Canadians. We have government hiring quotas.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Prove it. I don't believe such claims without some facts to back them up. If our government is doing these things and has these quotas, you must have some documentation to back it up or know where to find such; please produce it. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> We have an official policy of non-assimilation. We let their aging relatives relocate and vote Liberal.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> And <b>that</b> is a blatantly ignorant thing to say; you are making a baseless generalisation. You may as well be saying that all spanish speakers under 30 vote for the green party; there is *NO* basis for such a claim. Anyone voting in canadian elections has that right through citizenship, which is not a simple process by any means, and is *definitely* not any easier for elderly relatives of recent immigrants. The *only* people getting citizenship for free are those born here, which is a privilege that you apparently don't appreciate enough. Why should you be allowed to vote just because your ancestors came to canada earlier? What have *you* done to earn that citizenship? <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> If you can't imagine Toronto without multiculturalism than you can't imagine Canada of the 1950s--when we had our highest standard of living.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Bullshit. Pure and simple. There is ABSOLUTELY *NO* causal relationship between immigration and a drop in standard of living since the 50s. Canada had a big *increase* in the SOL in the 50s, due to the modernization of agriculture and manufacturing following the great depression. Since then, inflation and other economic factors have lowered the standard of living. The same sort of decrease has been experienced in all western nations. It has *nothing* to do with immigration. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/speeches/sp99-5.htm">from a 1999 speech by the governor of the bank of canada</a><br /> (<a href="http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rLEFbMUUkM8J:www.bankofcanada.ca/en/speeches/sp99-5.htm">google cache</a>).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> It is no secret Jesse that Canada has spent billions over the last 40 years on subsidies, ESL programs, integration, living allownances etcettera. Naturally these programs were helpful, many of them, but are not required for native-born Canadians, mpst of whom want to be left alone.<br /> <br /> I won't do the reasearch for you as you clearly don't want to hear what I have to say anyway.<br /> <br /> It is no secret that the Liberal party has courted the vote of new Canadians like no other. Also, Joe Volpe recently announced that the citizenship requirement is being loosened for parents and grandparents of immigrants who have already settled. We already discussed that on Vive. This means thousands more Liberal voters, starting in a few years--they'll need them.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= dino] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed]"Reach out more to immigrants"?! We already give them much more funding for housing and education that we do native-born Canadians. We have government hiring quotas. We have an official policy of non-assimilation. We let their aging relatives relocate and vote Liberal.<br /> <br /> If you can't imagine Toronto without multiculturalism than you can't imagine Canada of the 1950s--when we had our highest standard of living.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That's not true immigrants are most likely to eat from food banks leave in poor housing and have the highest tuition costs. Pertrubed what do you think Canada would be like if all immigrants stopped working for 3 weeks. Good bye to our health care system and our professors at the university.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Canada didn't use to have 30 million people, and we don't need that many people to function. Our economy is much more efficient than it was 40 years ago. In the 1950s we had 12 million people, and we flourished.<br /> <br /> If all immigrants stopped working, that would mean an influx of jobs for native-born Canadians who oculd be re-trained, most of whom expect to be paid better and who generally don't work under the table at construction sites.<br /> <br /> Immigrants who pay higher tuition are not poor--they are mostly wealthy immigrants from places like Hong Kong. They wouldn't come to Canada if they couldn't afford it.<br /> <br /> As for immigrants relying on food banks, those are not government funded IIRC.<br />

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= sthompson] Lesouris, I share your shock and dismay at some of the frankly racist attitudes being displayed here. I agree with every one of your posts, and thank you for being a breath of fresh air in the midst of the slime.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> So you're an expert on racism and xenophobia? Tell me how Sikh opposition to same sex marriages in Canada is not a form of racism and xenophobia?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]The opposition between "civilization" and "savagery" is a blatantly colonialist, imperialist, and frankly ethnocentric and racist mindset and pretty much exactly what we are fighting against here on Vive.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I agree. That's why I suport the indigenous freedom movements in Fiji, Tibet, and Chiapas.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]It always amazes me as well when certain Canadians characterize the entire immigrant population as being "selfish" and taking advantage of Canada. It's as if you don't feel people have the right to seek a better life in this country, and it also totally ignores how extremely difficult it is for many immigrants and refugess to get here (especially with our new agreement with the U.S.).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> How racist of you sthompson. You think that just because someone is non-white that they are poor and are in need of a better life. Our immigration points-system is designed to keep the poor out. I have yet to meet a South Asian who is not of upper caste extraction who did not live "a better life" in their own country. Many of them leave well paying jobs to come here. It is greed that brings them here. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]Not to mention the fact that even extremely skilled immigrants, often with PhDs, have an incredibly difficult time getting decent jobs to support their families--and that's often in cases when they take all the recommended re-education in the Canadian system and speak English fluently.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Gee, I wonder why that is? Must be due to racism and systematic discrinmination. It can't be due to the possibility that they were not needed here in the first place, meaning that there are no jobs for them to fill. Maybe a reduction in the number of immigrants might help the problem but of of course to even think that means you are a racist. Right? <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]It's such a problem, and one rooted in racism I might add, that there have been some highly publicized cases of skilled immigrants moving back out of Canada simplu because they could not make a living.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> See above. You're also sounding like a broken record I might add.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]Also, it bothers me that some people tend to paint all immigrants with the same brush, and those people who are anti-immigration tend to believe that all "white" people are true Canadians.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Anti-immigration? You must mean an end to immigration outright and I never said that and neither has Peturbed. Nor did we ever say that all true Canadians are white. What we are asking for is a preservation of Canadian tradtions and this can be accomplished through assimilation. Everyone is invited to be a Canadian regardless of skin colour but if you move here and identify with the culture of your home country yet call yourself a Canadian at the same time then what does that make of Canadian identity. It implies that there is none nor was there ever one and that is offensive. "Also, it bothers me that some people tend to paint all" immigration critics "with the same brush, and those people who are" pro-immigration "tend to believe that all" "THEY" "are true Canadians." <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]Like Lesouris I support gay marriage...[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Great. Now how about the two of you go to the many ethnic enclaves in Canada and preach your doctrine of equality because that is where the strongest of oppostition to same sex marriages resides.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= sthompson]Lastly, do I need to remind you that the birth rate in Canada is too low to maintain our population without immigration?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Actually noted demographers David Foot and Daniel Stoffman note that population growth in Canada will continue until 2020 even in the face of emigration and zero immigration. They also note that Canadian polpulation growth has historically been demtermined by natural birth rates and not immigration and this is the problem. Canada should be pursuing policies that encourage the growth of natural birth rates which is invariable tied to economics and high immigration numbers do not help this. As stats Canada has noted that immigrant women experience the same birth rates as domestic women.<br /> <br /> I might also add that Canada spends more money on importing and settling a foreign workforce into the country than it contribures to foreign aid and domestic housing. Estimates of the costs of immigration to Canada sore into the bilions of dollars. How much more must we reach out to these people? We accept too many immigrants and until we can address that fact then our immigration problems will not be solved.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> It is no secret Jesse that Canada has spent billions over the last 40 years on subsidies, ESL programs, integration, living allownances etcettera. Naturally these programs were helpful, many of them, but are not required for native-born Canadians, mpst of whom want to be left alone.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> "It is no secret" is basically saying that "I heard it from my cousin's accountant's brother"; you are attempting to lend credibility to pure unsubstantiated rumour. If it is such public knowledge, you should be able to find facts to back it up. Since it is your claim, it is your responsibility to support it. You are not yet doing that. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> I won't do the reasearch for you as you clearly don't want to hear what I have to say anyway.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I will not do *your* research, as it is *your* claim, and *your* responsibility to provide proof of same. Until you furnish some facts to back you up, I am not going to believe you. You'll note I am expecting the same amount of proof from dino; you may very well be right, and I will gladly admit it when you show me some proof. <br />

[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE by Perturbed]</b> In the 1950s we had 12 million people, and we flourished.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Perhaps one reason for that (on either side of the border) was that our nations’ industrial competitors in Europe and Japan were still in the midst of recovering from the ravages of World War II.?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by The Saint]</b> …Everyone is invited to be a Canadian regardless of skin colour but if you move here and identify with the culture of your home country yet call yourself a Canadian at the same time then what does that make of Canadian identity. It implies that there is none nor was there ever one and that is offensive.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Maybe rather than implying that there is no Canadian identity, it implies that a fundamental part of Canadian identity is inclusiveness? If someone has spent the first thirty years of his life in Elbonia, then emigrates to Canada, and subsequently earns Canadian citizenship, it would seem rather strange to completely compartmentalise those decades of Elbonian life. Perhaps he still thinks in Elbonian, mentally translating to English or French before speaking to his new countrymen? Maybe childhood memories in the mudfields of Elbonia will still hold a special place in his heart, not in competition with being Canadian but as a complement to being Canadian? <br /> <br /> [QUOTE by jesse]</b> Every time you complain about the moderators, god kills a kitten.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Promise? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'><br />

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> It is no secret Jesse that Canada has spent billions over the last 40 years on subsidies, ESL programs, integration, living allownances etcettera. Naturally these programs were helpful, many of them, but are not required for native-born Canadians, mpst of whom want to be left alone.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> "It is no secret" is basically saying that "I heard it from my cousin's accountant's brother"; you are attempting to lend credibility to pure unsubstantiated rumour. If it is such public knowledge, you should be able to find facts to back it up. Since it is your claim, it is your responsibility to support it. You are not yet doing that.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Actually it is a secret but only to Canadians. Ottawa knows how much it spends on immigration but it refuses to release these figures or acknowledge any figure publicly. It might be because public opinion might turn sour at the knowledge that billions of their dollars are being spent to import aprox. 250,000 people a year while our medicare and education system is in desperate need of huge cash injections and while job opportunites and our standard of living diminish. This could hurt the steady flow of new voters, cheap labour, and work for the immigration industry (lawyers, social workers, consulting firms, etc.).<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed]<br /> I won't do the reasearch for you as you clearly don't want to hear what I have to say anyway.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I will not do *your* research, as it is *your* claim, and *your* responsibility to provide proof of same. Until you furnish some facts to back you up, I am not going to believe you. You'll note I am expecting the same amount of proof from dino; you may very well be right, and I will gladly admit it when you show me some proof. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Since their are no official figures to go by estimation by comparison is needed. Britian imports about 100,000 people into the country a year (officially at lease and 70,000 less than Toronto accepts a year I might add!!!) This is at a cost of around $1 bil. CDN a year. The conservative and U.S. based Center for Immigration Studies examined Canada's immigration system and estimates that our immigration system costs Canadians over $1 bil. U.S. a year. If this is not good enough for you I suggest that you read "Betrayal and Deceit" by Charles M. Campbell and "Who Gets In" by Daniel Stoffman instead of the ill informed editorial pages of the Toronto Star.

[The Saint]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan] [QUOTE by The Saint]</b> …Everyone is invited to be a Canadian regardless of skin colour but if you move here and identify with the culture of your home country yet call yourself a Canadian at the same time then what does that make of Canadian identity. It implies that there is none nor was there ever one and that is offensive.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Maybe rather than implying that there is no Canadian identity, it implies that a fundamental part of Canadian identity is inclusiveness?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Inclusiveness? Then I guess the Miss Indo-Canadian pageant is not Canadian becuase only those of Indian extraction can compete. Same goes for the myriad of other ethnically exclusive pageants that have arisen in Canada (meaning Toronto). Multi-culturualism is about exclusion because people are defined by their differences. And don't confuse sharing one's culture with inclusion.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan]If someone has spent the first thirty years of his life in Elbonia, then emigrates to Canada, and subsequently earns Canadian citizenship...[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> "Earn" is a choice word. Immigrants only have to spend 50% of their time here (3 out of 6 years thanks to immigration lawyers). We have immigrants taken their oath of citizenship who cannot even speak an official language and have to be coached through the ceremony. If you want to really know what it means to earn Canadian citizenship then talk the many immigrants who came to Canada after the second world war. They cherish their citizenship, more so than many domestics, because they had to EARN it as opposed to today's immigrants who feel they are entitled to it.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan]it would seem rather strange to completely compartmentalise those decades of Elbonian life. Perhaps he still thinks in Elbonian, mentally translating to English or French before speaking to his new countrymen? Maybe childhood memories in the mudfields of Elbonia will still hold a special place in his heart, not in competition with being Canadian but as a complement to being Canadian?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> All of the above is specultion. I don't expect them to fully abandon their past lives in their coutries of origin if they do not wish to but don't call it Canadian because it is not. Elbania is not Canada. But of course, if you import enough of them then parts of Canada will be practically Elbanian and removing anything Candian.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> It is no secret Jesse that Canada has spent billions over the last 40 years on subsidies, ESL programs, integration, living allownances etcettera. Naturally these programs were helpful, many of them, but are not required for native-born Canadians, mpst of whom want to be left alone.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> "It is no secret" is basically saying that "I heard it from my cousin's accountant's brother"; you are attempting to lend credibility to pure unsubstantiated rumour. If it is such public knowledge, you should be able to find facts to back it up. Since it is your claim, it is your responsibility to support it. You are not yet doing that.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Actually it is a secret but only to Canadians. Ottawa knows how much it spends on immigration but it refuses to release these figures or acknowledge any figure publicly. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If it is only a secret to canadians, than you should easily be able to provide links to publications elsewhere in the world that know those numbers. Otherwise, you are still only quoting rumours. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> It might be because public opinion might turn sour at the knowledge that billions of their dollars are being spent to import aprox. 250,000 people a year while our medicare and education system is in desperate need of huge cash injections and while job opportunites and our standard of living diminish. This could hurt the steady flow of new voters, cheap labour, and work for the immigration industry (lawyers, social workers, consulting firms, etc.).<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed]<br /> I won't do the reasearch for you as you clearly don't want to hear what I have to say anyway.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I will not do *your* research, as it is *your* claim, and *your* responsibility to provide proof of same. Until you furnish some facts to back you up, I am not going to believe you. You'll note I am expecting the same amount of proof from dino; you may very well be right, and I will gladly admit it when you show me some proof. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Since their are no official figures to go by estimation by comparison is needed. Britian imports about 100,000 people into the country a year (officially at lease and 70,000 less than Toronto accepts a year I might add!!!) This is at a cost of around $1 bil. CDN a year. The conservative and U.S. based Center for Immigration Studies examined Canada's immigration system and estimates that our immigration system costs Canadians over $1 bil. U.S. a year. If this is not good enough for you I suggest that you read "Betrayal and Deceit" by Charles M. Campbell and "Who Gets In" by Daniel Stoffman instead of the ill informed editorial pages of the Toronto Star. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> That is not good enough for me, no. *Any* program will cost money to run, that says absolutely nothing about the effect on the economy of said immigrants. Where did you get that figure for the number of immigrants that toronto accepts? <br /> <br /> All I am asking is that you provide numbers that actually pertain to the question at hand, and you provide sources for those numbers. Is that so much to ask? <br /> <br /> But, since you refuse to do even that much, here's some actual provable facts and figures, publicly released by the canadian government and definitely NOT secret. <br /> <br /> In the period of 1996-2001 (we're due for a census soon) Canada's total population change was a net increase of 1.4 million people, with 1.7 million births and 1.2 million immigrants.<br /> <br /> Since 2000, Canada's immigration rate has been about 220,000 per year, which is consistent with the above numbers (multiply by 5). In 2003, over half of new permanent residents are 'economic immigrants', meaning they are directly contributing to the economy. (A quarter of new permanent residents are spouses, and the rest are children and grandparents.) <br /> <br /> <br /> Canada's Immigration program itself has an operating budget of $170.9m for 2005-2006. The total operating budget for the department of Citisenship and Immigration is $411.2m, with an estimated $422m in grants and contributions (which are probably what you have a problem with). The total planned spending for the department in 2005-2006 is $1,023.5 million canadian.<br /> <br /> However, immigration programs are an investment, which attempt to get more economic benefit from the immigrants than it costs to integrate them into Canada. As I stated above, the costs of Citizenship and Immigration say nothing about the economic costs or benefits of those immigrants, and it would be foolish to throw around such numbers and claim they prove immigrants are lowering our standard of living. <br /> <br /> I do not see how you can say that there are "no official figures". There are plenty of figures out there to be had. I got all of the above in less than an hour. An hour, I might add, which I could have spent being productive instead of doing other people's research. <br /> <br /> <br /> sources:<br /> <a href="http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo03.htm">http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo03.htm</a><br /> <a href="http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/facts2003/overview/1.html">http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/facts2003/overview/1.html</a><br /> <a href="http://www.fin.gc.ca/budget05/bp/bpc4ae.htm">http://www.fin.gc.ca/budget05/bp/bpc4ae.htm</a><br /> <a href="http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/20052006/CI-CI/CI-CIr5604_e.asp">http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/20052006/CI-CI/CI-CIr5604_e.asp</a><br /> <br /> (see how that works everybody? I'm providing sources instead of telling you to go look it up! Amazing!)

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> It is no secret Jesse that Canada has spent billions over the last 40 years on subsidies, ESL programs, integration, living allownances etcettera. Naturally these programs were helpful, many of them, but are not required for native-born Canadians, mpst of whom want to be left alone.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> "It is no secret" is basically saying that "I heard it from my cousin's accountant's brother"; you are attempting to lend credibility to pure unsubstantiated rumour. If it is such public knowledge, you should be able to find facts to back it up. Since it is your claim, it is your responsibility to support it. You are not yet doing that. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> I won't do the reasearch for you as you clearly don't want to hear what I have to say anyway.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I will not do *your* research, as it is *your* claim, and *your* responsibility to provide proof of same. Until you furnish some facts to back you up, I am not going to believe you. You'll note I am expecting the same amount of proof from dino; you may very well be right, and I will gladly admit it when you show me some proof. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Fair enough. However, I will warn you Jesse that web sites that will reveal such information MAY be sites that are seen as offensive, politically incorrect.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan] [QUOTE by Perturbed]</b> In the 1950s we had 12 million people, and we flourished.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Perhaps one reason for that (on either side of the border) was that our nations’ industrial competitors in Europe and Japan were still in the midst of recovering from the ravages of World War II.?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by The Saint]</b> …Everyone is invited to be a Canadian regardless of skin colour but if you move here and identify with the culture of your home country yet call yourself a Canadian at the same time then what does that make of Canadian identity. It implies that there is none nor was there ever one and that is offensive.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Maybe rather than implying that there is no Canadian identity, it implies that a fundamental part of Canadian identity is inclusiveness? If someone has spent the first thirty years of his life in Elbonia, then emigrates to Canada, and subsequently earns Canadian citizenship, it would seem rather strange to completely compartmentalise those decades of Elbonian life. Perhaps he still thinks in Elbonian, mentally translating to English or French before speaking to his new countrymen? Maybe childhood memories in the mudfields of Elbonia will still hold a special place in his heart, not in competition with being Canadian but as a complement to being Canadian? <br /> <br /> [QUOTE by jesse]</b> Every time you complain about the moderators, god kills a kitten.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Promise? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'><br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> You make some good points. I would agree Canada since 1967 has officially been about inclusiveness politically. However, before that assimilation into the English Canadian state of mind was expected if one was to participate in society. Union Jacks were all over the place. How many red ensigns do we see now? How many people would greet the Queen?

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint] [QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> It is no secret Jesse that Canada has spent billions over the last 40 years on subsidies, ESL programs, integration, living allownances etcettera. Naturally these programs were helpful, many of them, but are not required for native-born Canadians, mpst of whom want to be left alone.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> "It is no secret" is basically saying that "I heard it from my cousin's accountant's brother"; you are attempting to lend credibility to pure unsubstantiated rumour. If it is such public knowledge, you should be able to find facts to back it up. Since it is your claim, it is your responsibility to support it. You are not yet doing that.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Actually it is a secret but only to Canadians. Ottawa knows how much it spends on immigration but it refuses to release these figures or acknowledge any figure publicly. It might be because public opinion might turn sour at the knowledge that billions of their dollars are being spent to import aprox. 250,000 people a year while our medicare and education system is in desperate need of huge cash injections and while job opportunites and our standard of living diminish. This could hurt the steady flow of new voters, cheap labour, and work for the immigration industry (lawyers, social workers, consulting firms, etc.).<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= jesse] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed]<br /> I won't do the reasearch for you as you clearly don't want to hear what I have to say anyway.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I will not do *your* research, as it is *your* claim, and *your* responsibility to provide proof of same. Until you furnish some facts to back you up, I am not going to believe you. You'll note I am expecting the same amount of proof from dino; you may very well be right, and I will gladly admit it when you show me some proof. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Since their are no official figures to go by estimation by comparison is needed. Britian imports about 100,000 people into the country a year (officially at lease and 70,000 less than Toronto accepts a year I might add!!!) This is at a cost of around $1 bil. CDN a year. The conservative and U.S. based Center for Immigration Studies examined Canada's immigration system and estimates that our immigration system costs Canadians over $1 bil. U.S. a year. If this is not good enough for you I suggest that you read "Betrayal and Deceit" by Charles M. Campbell and "Who Gets In" by Daniel Stoffman instead of the ill informed editorial pages of the Toronto Star. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> You're brillant. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br /> BTW I just heard much of the 5+ billion Ontario's Premier McGuinty just extracted from Paul Martin will go towards settling immigrants, on top of what is already spent. Apparently Ontario gets 800 dollar per immigrant, while Quebec gets way more at 3800 per. (big surprise Quebec gets more.) This is on top of the billions on the human resources and other settlement costs of immigration.<br /> <br /> Like we have no other infrastructure, job-creation social or military funding needs. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> We also have to keep feeding the private banks to keep them happy. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>