[Calumny]

Last week, I almost suffered a cardiac arrest viewing Samuel's 'Okay, I give up' post to dino or someone. Now this!!!<br /> <br /> Perturbed and Samuel agreeing on something...I almost choked on my beer.<br /> <br /> I don't usually believe in conspiracy theories however, I think you guys are trying to kill me.<br /> <br /> Not that I'd blame you, of course. God, I can be long-winded and boring at times!!!<br /> <br /> What next?<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[samuel]

Yeah well, perhaps the Liberals should get their way in flooding the country with more of these Turbanites in order to spark a wakeup call. It's not as though 6 MPs and 1 million of them is alarming, is it? The apathy and tabboo in the ROC is sad and the feds taking full advantage of it is just disgusting.<br /> <br /> The issue will most likely and eventually affect Québec core values through Canadian legislation and we will take care of it, again.

[The Saint]

Lesouris<br /> <br /> If you want to meet an intolerant Sikh just go up to one and tell them you are gay. But generally the Sikhs have consitently diplayed an intolerance toward Canadian society as I have listed. Recently they sought to waste Ontario taxpayers money and the Ontario parliament's time by trying to get provincical recognition of Khalsa (the Sikh new year). This is a day that has no relavance to approximatly 97 per cent of the Ontario population yet they feel it is neccessary that this day get recognized. And just because they own cottages up north does not make them Canadian. For them, it is about property ownership and status more so then adjusting to a Canadian way of life.<br /> <br /> Sikhs wear a turban by choice. To expect us to change our ways to accomodate them is wrong. There was a situation when a single muslim woman, who was invited to an event, desired that alcohol not be served because it is offensive to her religion. This is the tolerant thing to do right? Everyone else should forgo the drinking of alcohol just for this single woman. Our idiotic multicultaral polices have created an attitude of entitlement to recent immigrants who expect to get everything they want their way and if that fails it is because of racism and systematic discrimination.<br /> <br /> Sikhs have colonized a suburban area just outside of Birmingham England. The result: they renamed the area Apna Town (punjabi for "Our Town"). It is only a matter of time before a part of B.C. will be renamed New Khalistan.<br /> <br /> Immigrants do not come to Canada for our culture. They do not even care to learn the language. There are domestically born children entering ESL classes because their parent didn't bother to teach them English at home. A female social worker called into a call in show and said that learing one of Canada's two offical languages was not a priority to many new immigrants. They were only concerned with getting Canadian citizenship so that they can go "back home." They only want what Canadian's have. Preserving our culture and way of life is not a concern. They seek to recreate what they have in their own countries but within a first world social, political, and economic system replete with recognition of their laws (Sharia), holidays (Khalsa), and costumes (Turbans).<br /> <br /> There is a way we can all get along. Immigrants should assimilate. It is that simple. If they do not they we should encourage immigration from countries whose populace is more agreeable with ours. To think multicultural socities are workable is naive and idealistic. There has never been a successful purely multicultural society in human history yet somehow Canada will be different. If you think that we will all get along then I have three words for you: Air India Bombing.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= The Saint]If you want to meet an intolerant Sikh just go up to one and tell them you are gay.[/QUOTE] Then I guess most old people and rural dwellers aren't Canadian either - they are just as intolerant towards gay people (of course I'm making generalizations, and I hate to do that, but for the purpose of my arguement they must be made).<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Sikhs wear a turban by choice. To expect us to change our ways to accomodate them is wrong.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> How many Sikh mounties are there? Seriously. Besides mounties hardly ever wear their dress uniform, unless they're in the musical ride. I don't think the stetson (an American invention by the way) is in any danger.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]There was a situation when a single muslim woman, who was invited to an event, desired that alcohol not be served because it is offensive to her religion. This is the tolerant thing to do right? Everyone else should forgo the drinking of alcohol just for this single woman. Our idiotic multicultaral polices have created an attitude of entitlement to recent immigrants who expect to get everything they want their way and if that fails it is because of racism and systematic discrimination.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I admit, the scenario with the Muslim woman is a bit ridiculous, but there is a difference. Whereas this woman wanted everyone at the event not to drink, Sikh men do not force everyone to wear turbans.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Sikhs have colonized a suburban area just outside of Birmingham England. The result: they renamed the area Apna Town (punjabi for "Our Town"). It is only a matter of time before a part of B.C. will be renamed New Khalistan.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Does anyone else see the irony in warning about colonialism in BRITISH Columbia?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Immigrants do not come to Canada for our culture. They do not even care to learn the language. There are domestically born children entering ESL classes because their parent didn't bother to teach them English at home. A female social worker called into a call in show and said that learing one of Canada's two offical languages was not a priority to many new immigrants. They were only concerned with getting Canadian citizenship so that they can go "back home." They only want what Canadian's have. Preserving our culture and way of life is not a concern. They seek to recreate what they have in their own countries but within a first world social, political, and economic system replete with recognition of their laws (Sharia), holidays (Khalsa), and costumes (Turbans).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> As long as they don't put us in residential schools, they be doing a lot better then we did. Let them have their culture, because just like the French, English, Scottish, and other cultures that have come here in the past, it will eventually grow into a unique Indo-Canadian culture distinct from what existed in the "old country".<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]There is a way we can all get along. Immigrants should assimilate. It is that simple. If they do not they we should encourage immigration from countries whose populace is more agreeable with ours. To think multicultural socities are workable is naive and idealistic. There has never been a successful purely multicultural society in human history yet somehow Canada will be different. If you think that we will all get along then I have three words for you: Air India Bombing.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Funny you should mention the Air India Bombing, because it was racism and cultural ignorance that hindered the RCMP investigation into the bombing, and eventually led to the release of two probably guilty men. Let's not forget that the vast majority of victims in this bombing were Indo-Canadians.<br /> <br /> I think we're ignoring some of the positives to immigration:<br /> 1. Our two biggest visible minorities are Chinese and Indian Canadians, coincidentally China and India are supposed to be the next economic superpowers. Certainly it would be beneficial to have significant ties to these countries.<br /> 2. Many immigrants are integrating into our country, while preserving some of their culture (why do you think there are Sikh mounties afterall? I know I stated earlier that there probably aren't that many, but that there are some is pretty good in my mind).<br /> 3. We hear more voices from more places and get a better idea of what the world is really like out there and how we can help it. Look, for instance, at Iranian Canadians who urge us not to go to war with Iran (if it ever comes to the forefront of national debate) because they know that in one generation, the theocracy there will be over. I remember one particularily insightful conversation I had with some of my friends from all over the world. There was an exchange of stories from regions of the world in which there is political turmoil, explained to me by people who were there. We discussed Islamist terrorists in the Philippines, the land policy of Hugo Chavez, the Hindu-Muslim friction in Gujarat, the insurgency in Iraq, and Putin's stranglehold on Russia's political system. You can talk about those issues with anyone, but with people who were actually there, whose lives have been affected by these issues - the passion in their voices struck me the most. These people did not come here to abuse our system, they came here to escape overpopulation and corrupt governments. I mean, do you really think a doctor in India would move to Canada just so he could abuse the system while making a cab driver's salary?<br /> <br /> Oh well, xenophobia is rampant in Europe and the US, I suppose I shouldn't have thought Canadians were any more civilized.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= The Saint]If you want to meet an intolerant Sikh just go up to one and tell them you are gay.[/QUOTE] Then I guess most old people and rural dwellers aren't Canadian either - they are just as intolerant towards gay people (of course I'm making generalizations, and I hate to do that, but for the purpose of my arguement they must be made).<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Sikhs wear a turban by choice. To expect us to change our ways to accomodate them is wrong.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> How many Sikh mounties are there? Seriously. Besides mounties hardly ever wear their dress uniform, unless they're in the musical ride. I don't think the stetson (an American invention by the way) is in any danger.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]There was a situation when a single muslim woman, who was invited to an event, desired that alcohol not be served because it is offensive to her religion. This is the tolerant thing to do right? Everyone else should forgo the drinking of alcohol just for this single woman. Our idiotic multicultaral polices have created an attitude of entitlement to recent immigrants who expect to get everything they want their way and if that fails it is because of racism and systematic discrimination.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I admit, the scenario with the Muslim woman is a bit ridiculous, but there is a difference. Whereas this woman wanted everyone at the event not to drink, Sikh men do not force everyone to wear turbans.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Sikhs have colonized a suburban area just outside of Birmingham England. The result: they renamed the area Apna Town (punjabi for "Our Town"). It is only a matter of time before a part of B.C. will be renamed New Khalistan.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Does anyone else see the irony in warning about colonialism in BRITISH Columbia?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]Immigrants do not come to Canada for our culture. They do not even care to learn the language. There are domestically born children entering ESL classes because their parent didn't bother to teach them English at home. A female social worker called into a call in show and said that learing one of Canada's two offical languages was not a priority to many new immigrants. They were only concerned with getting Canadian citizenship so that they can go "back home." They only want what Canadian's have. Preserving our culture and way of life is not a concern. They seek to recreate what they have in their own countries but within a first world social, political, and economic system replete with recognition of their laws (Sharia), holidays (Khalsa), and costumes (Turbans).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> As long as they don't put us in residential schools, they be doing a lot better then we did. Let them have their culture, because just like the French, English, Scottish, and other cultures that have come here in the past, it will eventually grow into a unique Indo-Canadian culture distinct from what existed in the "old country".<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= The Saint]There is a way we can all get along. Immigrants should assimilate. It is that simple. If they do not they we should encourage immigration from countries whose populace is more agreeable with ours. To think multicultural socities are workable is naive and idealistic. There has never been a successful purely multicultural society in human history yet somehow Canada will be different. If you think that we will all get along then I have three words for you: Air India Bombing.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Funny you should mention the Air India Bombing, because it was racism and cultural ignorance that hindered the RCMP investigation into the bombing, and eventually led to the release of two probably guilty men. Let's not forget that the vast majority of victims in this bombing were Indo-Canadians.<br /> <br /> I think we're ignoring some of the positives to immigration:<br /> 1. Our two biggest visible minorities are Chinese and Indian Canadians, coincidentally China and India are supposed to be the next economic superpowers. Certainly it would be beneficial to have significant ties to these countries.<br /> 2. Many immigrants are integrating into our country, while preserving some of their culture (why do you think there are Sikh mounties afterall? I know I stated earlier that there probably aren't that many, but that there are some is pretty good in my mind).<br /> 3. We hear more voices from more places and get a better idea of what the world is really like out there and how we can help it. Look, for instance, at Iranian Canadians who urge us not to go to war with Iran (if it ever comes to the forefront of national debate) because they know that in one generation, the theocracy there will be over. I remember one particularily insightful conversation I had with some of my friends from all over the world. There was an exchange of stories from regions of the world in which there is political turmoil, explained to me by people who were there. We discussed Islamist terrorists in the Philippines, the land policy of Hugo Chavez, the Hindu-Muslim friction in Gujarat, the insurgency in Iraq, and Putin's stranglehold on Russia's political system. You can talk about those issues with anyone, but with people who were actually there, whose lives have been affected by these issues - the passion in their voices struck me the most. These people did not come here to abuse our system, they came here to escape overpopulation and corrupt governments. I mean, do you really think a doctor in India would move to Canada just so he could abuse the system while making a cab driver's salary?<br /> <br /> Oh well, xenophobia is rampant in Europe and the US, I suppose I shouldn't have thought Canadians were any more civilized.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Please remember lesouris that most international business is done in ENGLISH, and that Canada's share of Chinese trade has been dropping greatly over the last 20 or 30 years, not going up.<br /> <br /> As for being civilized--that's what Canada and Europe are known for, which is why I want us to stay a first-world country.

[sthompson]

Lesouris, I share your shock and dismay at some of the frankly racist attitudes being displayed here. I agree with every one of your posts, and thank you for being a breath of fresh air in the midst of the slime.<br /> <br /> And I want to reassure anyone reading them that Vive doesn't necessarily share those views. You will note in fact that we have a membership policy which specifically requires our members not to be discriminatory (see FAQ), and I would warn a few people here that your membership may come into question at some point if you continue to display flagrantly racist attitudes. You're walking a very fine line at present; the nationalism here on Vive is NOT about excluding anyone based on race or country of origin and I will do all I can to make sure that never becomes part of what we do.<br /> <br /> Perturbed, for one thing I can't believe you would actually resort to defining Canada and Europe as being "civilized" as opposed to those "third world" countries and their immigrants, which you are railing against. The opposition between "civilization" and "savagery" is a blatantly colonialist, imperialist, and frankly ethnocentric and racist mindset and pretty much exactly what we are fighting against here on Vive. <br /> <br /> (Not to mention your rehtorical brush in that quote is so broad you would paint anyone of European origin as "civilized"--and personally I think say, Nazi Germany shouldn't qualify, although historical fact is that Canada was sometimes more welcoming to Germans during that time than other immigrants...because the Germans were white.)<br /> <br /> It always amazes me as well when certain Canadians characterize the entire immigrant population as being "selfish" and taking advantage of Canada. It's as if you don't feel people have the right to seek a better life in this country, and it also totally ignores how extremely difficult it is for many immigrants and refugess to get here (especially with our new agreement with the U.S.). Not to mention the fact that even extremely skilled immigrants, often with PhDs, have an incredibly difficult time getting decent jobs to support their families--and that's often in cases when they take all the recommended re-education in the Canadian system and speak English fluently. You seem to argue that "Canadians" (as if any of us are more "Canadian" in this nation of immigrants) should get those jobs first--but why give a job to a "Canadian" with less education, experience, etc than to a new Canadian with all of those things? It's such a problem, and one rooted in racism I might add, that there have been some highly publicized cases of skilled immigrants moving back out of Canada simplu because they could not make a living. These people came here to have a better life and contribute something extremely valuable in exchange--and were turned away. Hardly the lazy nanny-state sponges you seem to characterize them to be.<br /> <br /> Also, it bothers me that some people tend to paint all immigrants with the same brush, and those people who are anti-immigration tend to believe that all "white" people are true Canadians. I am a "white" person, born in Canada, so people often think I will share their anti-immigrant attitudes and discuss them openly with me--not realizing that I am a first generation Canadian, my mother coming from Finland and my grandparents, aunts and uncles from Holland after the Nazi occupation. My family were immigrants, but are they somehow more "Canadian" than other immigrants because they are white?? Or do you need to be a member of Perturbed's "historically Canadian" Europeans, which would presumably be mainly the Brits??? It's ridiculous. <br /> <br /> Like Lesouris I support gay marriage and I believe there are many problems with the immigration system that need to be fixed, not least of which is ending the new safe third country agreement with the US and making it possible for skilled immigrants to actually get jobs. But any changes must acknowledge that we are all immigrants here, and that Canada has been and will be built by the Canadians who come here from all over the world. <br /> <br /> Lastly, do I need to remind you that the birth rate in Canada is too low to maintain our population without immigration?

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= sthompson] Lesouris, I share your shock and dismay at some of the frankly racist attitudes being displayed here. I agree with every one of your posts, and thank you for being a breath of fresh air in the midst of the slime.<br /> <br /> And I want to reassure anyone reading them that Vive doesn't necessarily share those views. You will note in fact that we have a membership policy which specifically requires our members not to be discriminatory (see FAQ), and I would warn a few people here that your membership may come into question at some point if you continue to display flagrantly racist attitudes. You're walking a very fine line at present; the nationalism here on Vive is NOT about excluding anyone based on race or country of origin and I will do all I can to make sure that never becomes part of what we do.<br /> <br /> Perturbed, for one thing I can't believe you would actually resort to defining Canada and Europe as being "civilized" as opposed to those "third world" countries and their immigrants, which you are railing against. The opposition between "civilization" and "savagery" is a blatantly colonialist, imperialist, and frankly ethnocentric and racist mindset and pretty much exactly what we are fighting against here on Vive. <br /> <br /> (Not to mention your rehtorical brush in that quote is so broad you would paint anyone of European origin as "civilized"--and personally I think say, Nazi Germany shouldn't qualify, although historical fact is that Canada was sometimes more welcoming to Germans during that time than other immigrants...because the Germans were white.)<br /> <br /> It always amazes me as well when certain Canadians characterize the entire immigrant population as being "selfish" and taking advantage of Canada. It's as if you don't feel people have the right to seek a better life in this country, and it also totally ignores how extremely difficult it is for many immigrants and refugess to get here (especially with our new agreement with the U.S.). Not to mention the fact that even extremely skilled immigrants, often with PhDs, have an incredibly difficult time getting decent jobs to support their families--and that's often in cases when they take all the recommended re-education in the Canadian system and speak English fluently. You seem to argue that "Canadians" (as if any of us are more "Canadian" in this nation of immigrants) should get those jobs first--but why give a job to a "Canadian" with less education, experience, etc than to a new Canadian with all of those things? It's such a problem, and one rooted in racism I might add, that there have been some highly publicized cases of skilled immigrants moving back out of Canada simplu because they could not make a living. These people came here to have a better life and contribute something extremely valuable in exchange--and were turned away. Hardly the lazy nanny-state sponges you seem to characterize them to be.<br /> <br /> Also, it bothers me that some people tend to paint all immigrants with the same brush, and those people who are anti-immigration tend to believe that all "white" people are true Canadians. I am a "white" person, born in Canada, so people often think I will share their anti-immigrant attitudes and discuss them openly with me--not realizing that I am a first generation Canadian, my mother coming from Finland and my grandparents, aunts and uncles from Holland after the Nazi occupation. My family were immigrants, but are they somehow more "Canadian" than other immigrants because they are white?? Or do you need to be a member of Perturbed's "historically Canadian" Europeans, which would presumably be mainly the Brits??? It's ridiculous. <br /> <br /> Like Lesouris I support gay marriage and I believe there are many problems with the immigration system that need to be fixed, not least of which is ending the new safe third country agreement with the US and making it possible for skilled immigrants to actually get jobs. But any changes must acknowledge that we are all immigrants here, and that Canada has been and will be built by the Canadians who come here from all over the world. <br /> <br /> Lastly, do I need to remind you that the birth rate in Canada is too low to maintain our population without immigration? [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> To be honest Susan, I have mixed opinions on just about everything. Most of my friends are non-caucasian for example.<br /> <br /> I was simply responding to lesouris' comment when he said "I shouldn't have expected Canadians to be any more civilized than the U.S. or Europe. I found this offensive, because anyone with eyes can see that the <br /> G-8 countries, despite their faults, are the most civilzed and safe countries in the world to live.<br /> <br /> As for emplying skilled immigrants, I can tell you that there are thousands of skilled native-born Canadians here in Toronto with no job prospects.<br /> <br /> If this topic makes people uncomfortable I'll respectfullly be quiet, as I was only responsing to attitudes I though dismissive of native-born Canadians.<br /> <br /> If over 80% of Canadians are "xenophobic" in the polls, maybe it isn't as unusual as one might think at first. After all, mild xenophobia does have majority support from what I've read from the polling companies. Sorry if this issue offends anyone. <br /> <br />

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] I was simply responding to lesouris' comment when he said "I shouldn't have expected Canadians to be any more civilized than the U.S. or Europe. I found this offensive, because anyone with eyes can see that the <br /> G-8 countries, despite their faults, are the most civilzed and safe countries in the world to live.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Perhaps I chose the wrong wording, what I meant was that I had hoped Canadians were more progressive in their views in accepting equality. <br /> <br /> I have to wonder whether or not you understand the same-sex marriage debate at all; it's not about whether or not you like gay people, it's not about giving gay people special rights, it's about equality. When you use gay marriage as an attack against racial equality or equality for immigrants, you are mocking the very thing gay people have been fighting for for forty years in this country. Personally, I'm offended that people are using this debate to further their own xenophobic agenda. My community has worked long and hard for its rights, it would be hypocritical for us to preach the denial of other peoples'.<br /> <br /> I think that what you see as preferential treatment towards immigrants in the workplace is actually a sign of progress in this country. For decades, native-born and white people have been the prefered candidates for jobs. Now that those old distinctions are falling out of the mainstream, I think you will find a more proportionate amount of immigrants in the workplace. Of course from the perspective of the native-born community this might be threatening and even downright scary. My advice to you would be to get over it, some people are just more qualified for jobs than others, and race or origin shouldn't be a factor in employment.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] I was simply responding to lesouris' comment when he said "I shouldn't have expected Canadians to be any more civilized than the U.S. or Europe. I found this offensive, because anyone with eyes can see that the <br /> G-8 countries, despite their faults, are the most civilzed and safe countries in the world to live.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Perhaps I chose the wrong wording, what I meant was that I had hoped Canadians were more progressive in their views in accepting equality. <br /> <br /> I have to wonder whether or not you understand the same-sex marriage debate at all; it's not about whether or not you like gay people, it's not about giving gay people special rights, it's about equality. When you use gay marriage as an attack against racial equality or equality for immigrants, you are mocking the very thing gay people have been fighting for for forty years in this country. Personally, I'm offended that people are using this debate to further their own xenophobic agenda. My community has worked long and hard for its rights, it would be hypocritical for us to preach the denial of other peoples'.<br /> <br /> I think that what you see as preferential treatment towards immigrants in the workplace is actually a sign of progress in this country. For decades, native-born and white people have been the prefered candidates for jobs. Now that those old distinctions are falling out of the mainstream, I think you will find a more proportionate amount of immigrants in the workplace. Of course from the perspective of the native-born community this might be threatening and even downright scary. My advice to you would be to get over it, some people are just more qualified for jobs than others, and race or origin shouldn't be a factor in employment.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Gay marriage was not the focus. What mattered was that ethnic groups are being played against each other to win votes.<br /> <br /> As for immigrants in the work place being a sign of "progress", no country where most of these immigrants are from would say that it was "progressive" if we went there and starting working in Korea, China, India.<br /> <br /> To suggest that immigrants are better qualified than unemployed Canadians who could easily be re-trained is disturbing. I will not get over it. The majority agrees with me, so I wouldn't be so righteous. We have the highest youth unemployment ever, and our government is still importing many people who will eventually work in the service industry, where many young people used to start work. This may be "progress" for the companies who can push our salaries down, but it isn't progress for Canadian workers.<br /> <br /> It may be "progress" for the Alberta oil companies to bring in cheap labour, but it isn't progress for unemployed Albertans.<br /> <br /> It reminds me of Bill Gates who had the gall to say that the U.S.A. had to import low-salary computer programmers because there "weren't enough programmers in the U.S.A.", a country of 300 million people. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> <br />

[sthompson]

Ah, but Perturbed, I <I>agree</i> it is a bad policy to bring in labourers from say, Mexico, to replace Canadian workers because companies can pay those new people basically slave wages and treat them like crap. <br /> <P><br /> It's bad for the Canadians losing their jobs, yes, because they can't be hired cheaply enough and therefore can't be hired or get laid off--but you have to realize it is also a bad policy for the immigrants being given substandard wages and treatment. In that case Canadians aren't hired because they're seen as too expensive in the Wal-Mart world's race to the bottom, and the issue isn't lack of labour, it is the lack of CHEAP labour. <br /> <P><br /> The impression you've given in your previous posts is that you blame the imported labourers themselves for this problem, when in fact the blame should lay at the feet of the multinational companies with these policies, and the human resources branch of our government that is happy to supply the cheap labour for them. You've also given the impression that the labourers brought to Canada come here selfishly and are a drain on the system--when in actuality, they are the ones made to suffer from the terrible wages, poor treatment, racism, and lack of ability or knowledge to get help and improved conditions from our Canadian system, especially since they are often recruited under false pretences. Such labourers can't even vote, remember, and therefore have very little voice in this country once they get here. Worse, cheap immigrant labour brought into the country is often illegal. And there is also the larger perspective to be considered, which is that the policies of the "First World" countries are often the actual root reason "Third World" countries cannot attain a higher standard of living, and therefore "Third World" people migrate seeking a better economic situation (examples are structural adjustment programs and other policies of the IMF etc). <br /> <P><br /> Therefore, the answer is not to limit immigration and immigrants, although now I think I finally see why you were getting at this point, Perturbed. Rather it is to <i>change</I> immigration policies so that they are not focused on bringing in immigrants for cheap labour, but rather on bringing in immigrants and ensuring that they have access to better jobs, with more rights, and better treatment, at the same time as we improve labour conditions in Canada in <i>general</I>. <br /> <P><br /> I'm not myself a Marxist, nor even necessarily a socialist in that I disagree strongly with the socialist opposition to progressive nationalism, but <a href="http://newsocialist.org/newsite/index.php?id=174">here</a> is a pretty good analysis of the issue of cheap immigrant labour and how racism against immigrants actually exacerbates the situation rather than helps end it:<br /> <P><br /> <blockquote><br /> The vast majority of jobs characterized by low pay, difficult and dangerous working conditions, instability, irregular hours, lack of benefits, social stigma and a lack of advancement opportunities are done by immigrant labour, if not by Canadian-born racial minorities, women, or youth. Immigrants do the kinds of jobs that others will not do, and this is precisely why they are so important to First World countries. Indeed, this is the conscious aim of immigration policy in Canada. Playing on the desperation of Third World migrants (for which Canada is partly responsible), and mobilizing deeply rooted racist attitudes towards persons of colour, it severely circumscribes their rights.<br /> <br /> For example, access to full-citizenship status is denied to most immigrants entering the country to work. The requirements for obtaining status are so restrictive that they exclude huge categories of immigrants. In1973, 57% of all migrants to Canada classified as “workers” entered with permanent resident status. Twenty years later, that number had dropped to 30%. In order to obtain permanent residence in Canada before arrival, an applicant must accumulate sufficient “points”. Only those who are fluent in English or French, have a university education, an arranged job in Canada, and at least four years of skilled work have a chance of obtaining enough “points” to get citizenship.<br /> <br /> It is virtually impossible for economic migrants that show up in Canada without pre-arranged landed immigrant status to get status. At constant risk of deportation, non-status workers have no access to the social benefits and protections that are offered to “citizens,” which in turn makes them super-exploitable. Non-status migrants are barred from services such as subsidized housing, health insurance, social assistance, student loans, and in some provinces legal aid, despite the fact that these people are much more likely to be living in poverty than other segments of the population. In the case of the temporary worker program, which includes domestic and agricultural labourers, immigrants are not covered by labour law and are not allowed to change employers – extremely coercive conditions of employment that leave people susceptible to all kinds of abuse. Those immigrants who cannot obtain the permits required to work legally in Canada comprise the steadily growing underground economy. All of these factors contribute to the forcing of Third World immigrants into jobs for which they are often overqualified, and where they face the worst conditions the Canadian labour market has to offer.<br /> <br /> The industries immigrants typically end up in are those where the labour needs to be done locally in order to keep the economy functioning, but which would not be profitable at pay levels needed to attract large numbers of full-time Canadian-born workers. These industries include all types of service provision, construction work, cleaning, transport, domestic work and sex work. Jobs in these industries are characterized as “unskilled”, and the pay is low relative to the working conditions. One of the reasons employers work very hard in these industries to keep wages low is they are considered “low productivity”. “Low productivity” refers to the fact that capital investment (tools, machinery, technologies etc.) in many of these industries does not tremendously increase labour productivity (certainly not compared to capital-intensive industries like auto manufacturing). For example, you can give cleaners stronger cleaning solutions which may somewhat decrease the time it takes to clean a bathroom, but beyond that the time to do this job, and thus the costs beyond wages, cannot be cut down significantly. Profitability, in other words, is very wage sensitive; the best way to increase profits is to cut down on labour costs.<br /> <br /> Thus, one of the most effective ways for employers to keep down costs in these industries is by drawing from an army of highly vulnerable and badly paid migrant workers. The labour is cheap, but it is nevertheless pivotal to the economy. For an office building to function in Canada, for example, it will need cleaners, security guards and catering services. And more highly-paid workers there will need dry cleaners, taxi drivers, cooks, servers and dishwashers working at their lunch restaurants and coffee shops, hairdressers, caregivers for their children, cleaners for their homes and people to build their houses.<br /> <br /> So the capitalist economy cannot function without a class of people in the imperialist centre who are excluded from the benefits that come with living in the imperialist centre. The global domination of certain nations is reproduced within the dominating nations themselves. Individual and institutional racism helps extend the inferior status of certain nations onto its people, even after they have geographically moved into the First World.<br /> <br /> The trends described here, framed by the deep-seated racist character of Canadian society, will continue, as Canada and other First World countries, with aging populations and low fertility rates, become increasingly dependant on cheap labour from the Global South. The Canadian government’s annual Report on the Demographic Situation in Canada reports that, in order to sustain economic growth, the country will have to rely on increased levels of migration. As it reports this, however, immigration policy, as we have noted, remains very restrictive towards people from the Third World. This doesn’t mean that Canada doesn’t want those labourers, however, just that it wants them on its terms.<br /> <br /> </blockquote><br /> <br /> And good points again Lesouris about the gay marriage debate.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= sthompson] Ah, but Perturbed, I <I>agree</i> it is a bad policy to bring in labourers from say, Mexico, to replace Canadian workers because companies can pay those new people basically slave wages and treat them like crap. <br /> <P><br /> It's bad for the Canadians losing their jobs, yes, because they can't be hired cheaply enough and therefore can't be hired or get laid off--but you have to realize it is also a bad policy for the immigrants being given substandard wages and treatment. In that case Canadians aren't hired because they're seen as too expensive in the Wal-Mart world's race to the bottom, and the issue isn't lack of labour, it is the lack of CHEAP labour. <br /> <P><br /> The impression you've given in your previous posts is that you blame the imported labourers themselves for this problem, when in fact the blame should lay at the feet of the multinational companies with these policies, and the human resources branch of our government that is happy to supply the cheap labour for them. You've also given the impression that the labourers brought to Canada come here selfishly and are a drain on the system--when in actuality, they are the ones made to suffer from the terrible wages, poor treatment, racism, and lack of ability or knowledge to get help and improved conditions from our Canadian system, especially since they are often recruited under false pretences. Such labourers can't even vote, remember, and therefore have very little voice in this country once they get here. Worse, cheap immigrant labour brought into the country is often illegal. And there is also the larger perspective to be considered, which is that the policies of the "First World" countries are often the actual root reason "Third World" countries cannot attain a higher standard of living, and therefore "Third World" people migrate seeking a better economic situation (examples are structural adjustment programs and other policies of the IMF etc). <br /> <P><br /> Therefore, the answer is not to limit immigration and immigrants, although now I think I finally see why you were getting at this point, Perturbed. Rather it is to <i>change</I> immigration policies so that they are not focused on bringing in immigrants for cheap labour, but rather on bringing in immigrants and ensuring that they have access to better jobs, with more rights, and better treatment, at the same time as we improve labour conditions in Canada in <i>general</I>. <br /> <P><br /> I'm not myself a Marxist, nor even necessarily a socialist in that I disagree strongly with the socialist opposition to progressive nationalism, but <a href="http://newsocialist.org/newsite/index.php?id=174">here</a> is a pretty good analysis of the issue of cheap immigrant labour and how racism against immigrants actually exacerbates the situation rather than helps end it:<br /> <P><br /> <blockquote><br /> The vast majority of jobs characterized by low pay, difficult and dangerous working conditions, instability, irregular hours, lack of benefits, social stigma and a lack of advancement opportunities are done by immigrant labour, if not by Canadian-born racial minorities, women, or youth. Immigrants do the kinds of jobs that others will not do, and this is precisely why they are so important to First World countries. Indeed, this is the conscious aim of immigration policy in Canada. Playing on the desperation of Third World migrants (for which Canada is partly responsible), and mobilizing deeply rooted racist attitudes towards persons of colour, it severely circumscribes their rights.<br /> <br /> For example, access to full-citizenship status is denied to most immigrants entering the country to work. The requirements for obtaining status are so restrictive that they exclude huge categories of immigrants. In1973, 57% of all migrants to Canada classified as “workers” entered with permanent resident status. Twenty years later, that number had dropped to 30%. In order to obtain permanent residence in Canada before arrival, an applicant must accumulate sufficient “points”. Only those who are fluent in English or French, have a university education, an arranged job in Canada, and at least four years of skilled work have a chance of obtaining enough “points” to get citizenship.<br /> <br /> It is virtually impossible for economic migrants that show up in Canada without pre-arranged landed immigrant status to get status. At constant risk of deportation, non-status workers have no access to the social benefits and protections that are offered to “citizens,” which in turn makes them super-exploitable. Non-status migrants are barred from services such as subsidized housing, health insurance, social assistance, student loans, and in some provinces legal aid, despite the fact that these people are much more likely to be living in poverty than other segments of the population. In the case of the temporary worker program, which includes domestic and agricultural labourers, immigrants are not covered by labour law and are not allowed to change employers – extremely coercive conditions of employment that leave people susceptible to all kinds of abuse. Those immigrants who cannot obtain the permits required to work legally in Canada comprise the steadily growing underground economy. All of these factors contribute to the forcing of Third World immigrants into jobs for which they are often overqualified, and where they face the worst conditions the Canadian labour market has to offer.<br /> <br /> The industries immigrants typically end up in are those where the labour needs to be done locally in order to keep the economy functioning, but which would not be profitable at pay levels needed to attract large numbers of full-time Canadian-born workers. These industries include all types of service provision, construction work, cleaning, transport, domestic work and sex work. Jobs in these industries are characterized as “unskilled”, and the pay is low relative to the working conditions. One of the reasons employers work very hard in these industries to keep wages low is they are considered “low productivity”. “Low productivity” refers to the fact that capital investment (tools, machinery, technologies etc.) in many of these industries does not tremendously increase labour productivity (certainly not compared to capital-intensive industries like auto manufacturing). For example, you can give cleaners stronger cleaning solutions which may somewhat decrease the time it takes to clean a bathroom, but beyond that the time to do this job, and thus the costs beyond wages, cannot be cut down significantly. Profitability, in other words, is very wage sensitive; the best way to increase profits is to cut down on labour costs.<br /> <br /> Thus, one of the most effective ways for employers to keep down costs in these industries is by drawing from an army of highly vulnerable and badly paid migrant workers. The labour is cheap, but it is nevertheless pivotal to the economy. For an office building to function in Canada, for example, it will need cleaners, security guards and catering services. And more highly-paid workers there will need dry cleaners, taxi drivers, cooks, servers and dishwashers working at their lunch restaurants and coffee shops, hairdressers, caregivers for their children, cleaners for their homes and people to build their houses.<br /> <br /> So the capitalist economy cannot function without a class of people in the imperialist centre who are excluded from the benefits that come with living in the imperialist centre. The global domination of certain nations is reproduced within the dominating nations themselves. Individual and institutional racism helps extend the inferior status of certain nations onto its people, even after they have geographically moved into the First World.<br /> <br /> The trends described here, framed by the deep-seated racist character of Canadian society, will continue, as Canada and other First World countries, with aging populations and low fertility rates, become increasingly dependant on cheap labour from the Global South. The Canadian government’s annual Report on the Demographic Situation in Canada reports that, in order to sustain economic growth, the country will have to rely on increased levels of migration. As it reports this, however, immigration policy, as we have noted, remains very restrictive towards people from the Third World. This doesn’t mean that Canada doesn’t want those labourers, however, just that it wants them on its terms.<br /> <br /> </blockquote><br /> <br /> And good points again Lesouris about the gay marriage debate. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Don't get me wrong Susan, I'm not blaming immigrants for our government's failures.<br /> <br /> In Toronto I see the effects of our policies much more than people living in any Canadian city except perhaps Vancouver. Toronto's accomoadting attitude is not always reciprocated, let's put it that way.<br /> <br /> I won't start an argument, but I have my doubts about whether third world countries would be better off or not without western interference. They were always poor, even before our interference. China and India are, despite their problems, much better after western involvement.<br /> <br /> As for whether or not we need more immigration, you suggested reducing it is not the answer, and when I discussed the opposite I was merely trying to highlight the fact that the majority of Canadians want immigration to be reduced. It isn't my job to determine whether Vive is a populous site, but I can assure you from mainstream polls that the current policies are not as popular as many people think, but political correctness has won for now.<br /> <br /> I'd argue egalitarianism is as responsible as economics for our current situation.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Don't get me wrong Susan, I'm not blaming immigrants for our government's failures.<br /> <br /> In Toronto I see the effects of our policies much more than people living in any Canadian city except perhaps Vancouver. Toronto's accomoadting attitude is not always reciprocated, let's put it that way.<br /> <br /> I won't start an argument, but I have my doubts about whether third world countries would be better off or not without western interference. They were always poor, even before our interference. China and India are, despite their problems, much better after western involvement.<br /> <br /> As for whether or not we need more immigration, you suggested reducing it is not the answer, and when I discussed the opposite I was merely trying to highlight the fact that the majority of Canadians want immigration to be reduced. It isn't my job to determine whether Vive is a populous site, but I can assure you from mainstream polls that the current policies are not as popular as many people think, but political correctness has won for now.<br /> <br /> I'd argue egalitarianism is as responsible as economics for our current situation.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If the majority of Canadians are as xenophobic as you say they are, then aren't immigrants reciprocating the same attitude they're getting? Besides, how happy would you be if you spent a decade in school becoming a doctor so that when you came here you could drive a taxi? It takes time to adjust to a new country, just like it would take you time if you were put in a new environment regardless of how the people their acted.<br /> <br /> Perhaps if we actually reached out to these community and regarded them with more than novelty or even contempt, they would feel more welcome here and better integrate into the fabric of Canadian society. It's all a two way street. I think that we have acheived tolerance as a society, which is great, but tolerance is only the first step towards achieving (and I know you're going to love this <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> ) a "just society".<br /> <br /> I think that you have to be careful when you compare the way we treat immigrants to the way we would be treated if we emmigrated to their country. I mean, don't we want to be better than other countries? Obviously something isn't quite right in these countries if people are willing to leave their homes and move here.<br /> <br /> I live in Toronto too, and I absolutely love how multicultural this city is. I can't imagine Toronto without Chinatown, the Danforth, Little Italy, Koreatown, or any of the many other diverse communities here. To think that we all live here, together, without any major conflict; it inspires me to think that maybe one day the world will be more like this city (well, I suppose you can only have that vision for so long until you realize we have a huge homeless problem that always seems to be getting worse, but if you expect the world to improve a lot, you can expect a city to improve a little).

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Don't get me wrong Susan, I'm not blaming immigrants for our government's failures.<br /> <br /> In Toronto I see the effects of our policies much more than people living in any Canadian city except perhaps Vancouver. Toronto's accomoadting attitude is not always reciprocated, let's put it that way.<br /> <br /> I won't start an argument, but I have my doubts about whether third world countries would be better off or not without western interference. They were always poor, even before our interference. China and India are, despite their problems, much better after western involvement.<br /> <br /> As for whether or not we need more immigration, you suggested reducing it is not the answer, and when I discussed the opposite I was merely trying to highlight the fact that the majority of Canadians want immigration to be reduced. It isn't my job to determine whether Vive is a populous site, but I can assure you from mainstream polls that the current policies are not as popular as many people think, but political correctness has won for now.<br /> <br /> I'd argue egalitarianism is as responsible as economics for our current situation.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If the majority of Canadians are as xenophobic as you say they are, then aren't immigrants reciprocating the same attitude they're getting? Besides, how happy would you be if you spent a decade in school becoming a doctor so that when you came here you could drive a taxi? It takes time to adjust to a new country, just like it would take you time if you were put in a new environment regardless of how the people their acted.<br /> <br /> Perhaps if we actually reached out to these community and regarded them with more than novelty or even contempt, they would feel more welcome here and better integrate into the fabric of Canadian society. It's all a two way street. I think that we have acheived tolerance as a society, which is great, but tolerance is only the first step towards achieving (and I know you're going to love this <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> ) a "just society".<br /> <br /> I think that you have to be careful when you compare the way we treat immigrants to the way we would be treated if we emmigrated to their country. I mean, don't we want to be better than other countries? Obviously something isn't quite right in these countries if people are willing to leave their homes and move here.<br /> <br /> I live in Toronto too, and I absolutely love how multicultural this city is. I can't imagine Toronto without Chinatown, the Danforth, Little Italy, Koreatown, or any of the many other diverse communities here. To think that we all live here, together, without any major conflict; it inspires me to think that maybe one day the world will be more like this city (well, I suppose you can only have that vision for so long until you realize we have a huge homeless problem that always seems to be getting worse, but if you expect the world to improve a lot, you can expect a city to improve a little).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> "Reach out more to immigrants"?! We already give them much more funding for housing and education that we do native-born Canadians. We have government hiring quotas. We have an official policy of non-assimilation. We let their aging relatives relocate and vote Liberal.<br /> <br /> If you can't imagine Toronto without multiculturalism than you can't imagine Canada of the 1950s--when we had our highest standard of living.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] "Reach out more to immigrants"?! We already give them much more funding for housing and education that we do native-born Canadians. We have government hiring quotas. We have an official policy of non-assimilation. We let their aging relatives relocate and vote Liberal.<br /> <br /> If you can't imagine Toronto without multiculturalism than you can't imagine Canada of the 1950s--when we had our highest standard of living.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Let me ask you a question; if you were to adopt a child, would it be enough for you to just feed them, give them shelter, and an education? No, you must also love them as if they were your own biological children. Our society cannot just throw money at immigrants, we must also love them as much as we love those of us who happened to be born here.<br /> <br /> Whenever we talk about days past (ie. the 1950s), humans have a tendency to belive those days were much simpler, and better times; a golden age. In the Toronto of the 1950s, there was sexism, racism, and homophobia. Maybe it was a good time for straight white men, but it wasn't that great for the rest of us.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> "Reach out more to immigrants"?! We already give them much more funding for housing and education that we do native-born Canadians. We have government hiring quotas.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Prove it. I don't believe such claims without some facts to back them up. If our government is doing these things and has these quotas, you must have some documentation to back it up or know where to find such; please produce it. <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> We have an official policy of non-assimilation. We let their aging relatives relocate and vote Liberal.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> And <b>that</b> is a blatantly ignorant thing to say; you are making a baseless generalisation. You may as well be saying that all spanish speakers under 30 vote for the green party; there is *NO* basis for such a claim. Anyone voting in canadian elections has that right through citizenship, which is not a simple process by any means, and is *definitely* not any easier for elderly relatives of recent immigrants. The *only* people getting citizenship for free are those born here, which is a privilege that you apparently don't appreciate enough. Why should you be allowed to vote just because your ancestors came to canada earlier? What have *you* done to earn that citizenship? <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> If you can't imagine Toronto without multiculturalism than you can't imagine Canada of the 1950s--when we had our highest standard of living.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Bullshit. Pure and simple. There is ABSOLUTELY *NO* causal relationship between immigration and a drop in standard of living since the 50s. Canada had a big *increase* in the SOL in the 50s, due to the modernization of agriculture and manufacturing following the great depression. Since then, inflation and other economic factors have lowered the standard of living. The same sort of decrease has been experienced in all western nations. It has *nothing* to do with immigration. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/speeches/sp99-5.htm">from a 1999 speech by the governor of the bank of canada</a><br /> (<a href="http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rLEFbMUUkM8J:www.bankofcanada.ca/en/speeches/sp99-5.htm">google cache</a>).