[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] You people are completely missing the point here. This is not an immigration issue. How many native-born Canadians disagree with gay marriage? I mean, five years ago the overwhelming majority of Canadians opposed SSM, why do you think we had to have the courts tell us that restricting marriage to heterosexual couples was unconstitutional?<br /> <br /> What makes immigrants any less Canadian than native born Canadians? What is Canadian anyway?<br /> <br /> Besides, immigrants know that if the notwithstanding clause is used to restrict gay marriage, it can as easily be used to restrict their rights.<br /> <br /> As a gay person (and as far as I know, the only one whose contributed to this thread) I know what I want, and that is equality before the law. I cannot be hypocritical in saying that other groups of people should give up their equality so that I can have mine. If we start screening immigrants to ensure that those who come here blindly conform to the views of the majority, we would be spitting in the face of those very laws we hold so dear.<br /> <br /> Seriously, how many of us would be here if immigration had be screened along those lines for the past 500 years. I mean, I don't think the fundementalist Catholics who setlled New France would be all that happy with gay marriage. Hell, they probably would be angry that we allow Protestants into our country now, or outlawed the slave trade! It's the same with every group whose ever come to Canada, but eventually they all become Canadian and our society grows. And if it wasn't for gay people fighting for our own rights for the past forty years, you'd all probably still think homosexuality should be a crime, not to mention SSM.<br /> <br /> Native-born Canadians have had forty years to adjust to the gay rights movement. Immigrants from all over the world have not had that time, and I am surprised that any of them support SSM, but some do. When you put this debate into that context it really says a lot about both groups, native-born and immigrant.<br /> <br /> Immigrants are not mindless drones, they are as individual as you or I, and it is despicible that we are actually having this debate in the 21st Century. Immigration is here to stay and if you don't like it, I think you'll find yourself right at home in the Heritage Front.<br /> <br /> So some foreign religious leader disagrees with the position taken by the Canadian government and the majority of the Canadian people, so what else is new? Believe me, twenty years after SSM is (finally) passed, no one will care any more but a handful of fundementalists. It's just like the divorce debate or the women's lib debate, no one cares anymore.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> What is Canadian? What makes immigrants any less Canadian than native born Canadians?<br /> <br /> I'll throw this back at you, seeing as Canada is 84% white European, are the Al-Qaeda connected fundamentalist Khadr family just as Canadian as those who are native born? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= dino] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed]Hi Calumny. I think winning elections is part of it....and our birthrate is low, not that theey've done anything to improve that, and we used to have 20 million just 40 years ago and things were fine.<br /> <br /> Also, there is no conspiracy theory necessary. Paul Martin has said that "multilculturalism is where the world is going--as we move towards a borderless world."<br /> <br /> Obviously some countries care much more than others about their border, but how can you reason with politiciains who believe in corporations, not countries? They are purposely ruining the solidarity of the populations of all western nations.<br /> <br /> I personally think we should slow immigration down, and it wouldn't bother me if immigrants came mostly from Europe. I'm not saying this is necessarily the only way it can work, but say if most people came from Britain, how could it bother me? It would almost be refreshing to meet people who aren't illiterate in one of our official languages when they get to Canada.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> So it's the language that bothers you? I quite sure if immigrants come from India,Zimbabwe,Hong Kong etc. They speak english and I'm pretty sure Pertrubed that they aren't illiterate. you say you wouldn't mind having simply people from europe coming here,well I'm quite sure Russians, Romanians and Italians can't speak as good of english as people from India, Zimbabwe and Hong Kong......(and pertrubed says she isn't racist <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> )[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I'm not a she, and no I'm not falling for people who play the race card every time someone disagrees with them. The English language has gone downhill for a number of reasons--one of which is many first generation speakers.

[samuel]

<br /> <br /> Seems they know exactly what I'm refering to. If there is 1 million now, Mr. Martin will make sure there is 2 million soon. Immigration in the hands of the feds is a loaded gun in the hands of a child...<br /> <br /> <b>Hindustan Times:</b><br /> <br /> How much political clout the more than a million-strong Indo-Canadian community has come to wield in this country can be gauged from media reports these days. Pick up any newspaper or watch TV news and you will invariably see some top political leader wooing them.<br /> <br /> Last Sunday, this spectacle was played out on the national scene when Prime Minister Paul Martin, Conservative leader Stephen Harper and New Democratic Party leader Jack Layton vied with each another to woo the Sikhs of Toronto at weekend gurdwara gatherings.<br /> <br /> With their heads covered with saffron scarves, the three leaders adopted different tactics to woo the audience. While Martin praised the community for its contribution to Canada, Harper told them how his party stood for traditional values and opposed same-sex marriages. For his part, Layton tried to please them by demanding a public inquiry into the Air-India case and official recognition for the five Sikh symbols (Ks) in Canada.<br /> <br /> Furthermore, all sorts of announcements have been made in recent days to ease the immigration process and visa rules for relatives and "recognise'' foreign degrees.<br /> <br /> The reasons for this wooing game are not far to seek. The Liberal party government of Prime Minister Paul Martin, which was already in minority, has been put in political jeopardy by the sponsorship scandal. The scandal happened when federal contracts were given to Liberal party-friendly ad firms for promoting nationalism (federalism) in Quebec after the narrow defeat of a referendum for that province's separatism from Canada in 1995.<br /> <br /> This $250 million scandal, called Adscam, is being now probed by Justice John Gomery. Revelations before the commission last week forced the Prime Minister to speak to people directly to plead for more time.<br /> <br /> Though the New Democratic Party, which has wrested concessions on the budget, has promised to bail out the Government when the no-trust motion comes up some time later, it is unlikley that the Government will survive.<br /> <br /> In a way, the Toronto show marked the kick-off of the campaign for the next general election which could come as soon as June.<br /> <br /> Amid this unfolding drama at the federal level, British Columbia province is already in the poll mode for the May 17 ballot to elect a new 79-member assembly.<br /> <br /> Here again, the Indo-Canadians, who constitute about 6-7 per cent of the provincial population, are a much sought-after community these days.<br /> <br /> In many constituencies (ridings) of Surrey, Delta, Richmond, Vancouver and Burnaby, Indo-Canadians are not only the deciding factor but are the deciders.<br /> <br /> As has happened in the past elections, both the ruling Liberal party and the Opposition New Democratic Party (NDP) have fielded quite a few Indo-Canadian candidates to win community votes.<br /> <br /> In fact, there are a record 15 Indo-Canadians in the fray -- seven from the Liberal party and nine from the NDP -- this time. In the outgoing assembly, there were seven Indo-Canadian MLAs -- six for the Liberal party and one for the NDP.<br /> <br /> Out of the six Liberal MLAs, two were -- both women Patty Sahota and Sindi Hawkins -- ministers of state. While the Liberals have retained all but one outgoing MLAs as their candidates, the NDP has given tickets to many new faces.<br /> <br /> Curiously, the youngest Indo-Canadian MLA Karn Manhas -- who in the 2001 elections became the youngest MLA in British Columbian history -- is not contesting this time. The Liberal party has replaced him with the most respected Indo-Canadian in this province. He is Justice Wally Oppal of the British Columbian Supreme Court.<br /> <br /> At 64, Oppal is the oldest Indo-Canadian ever to contest elections in this province and could be the next attorney general (who combines the roles of home minister and law minister in India) of the province. This job was also held by the current Canadian health minister Ujjal Dosanjh before he became the premier (equivalent of a chief minister in India) in February 2000. Interestingly, in three constituencies, it is an all Indo-Canadian affair.<br /> <br /> In Vancouver-Fraserview, Justice Oppal faces Ravindar Gill who is a former bus driver. And the sitting MLA, Jagrup Brar, of the NDP faces Bob Hans in Surrey-Panorama. Brar is a former basketball player for India and had won the November by-election from the same constituency.<br /> <br /> Raj Chouhan of the NDP and state minister Patty Sahota are locked in Burnaby-Edmonds.<br /> <br /> And then there is an honorary Indian called Toofan Singh aka Daniel Ogali, who is the Liberal candidate against Harry Bains of the NDP in Surrey-Newton.<br /> <br /> Ogali came to Canada as part of the Nigerian team for the Commonwealth Games in Victoria and stayed back to live with an Indo-Canadian family in Surrey. In the Sydney Olympics in 2000, he won Canada's first gold medal in wrestling.<br /> <br /> Because of his association with Indo-Canadians, Ogali became a very good player of kabbadi that earned him the nickname of 'Toofan' or Typhoon Singh.<br /> <br /> And this Typhoon is creating waves in British Columbia these days.<br /> <br /> http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5967_1342968,001600060011.htm

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br /> <br /> Seems they know exactly what I'm refering to. If there is 1 million now, Mr. Martin will make sure there is 2 million soon. Immigration in the hands of the feds is a loaded gun in the hands of a child...<br /> <br /> <b>Hindustan Times:</b><br /> <br /> How much political clout the more than a million-strong Indo-Canadian community has come to wield in this country can be gauged from media reports these days. Pick up any newspaper or watch TV news and you will invariably see some top political leader wooing them.<br /> <br /> Last Sunday, this spectacle was played out on the national scene when Prime Minister Paul Martin, Conservative leader Stephen Harper and New Democratic Party leader Jack Layton vied with each another to woo the Sikhs of Toronto at weekend gurdwara gatherings.<br /> <br /> With their heads covered with saffron scarves, the three leaders adopted different tactics to woo the audience. While Martin praised the community for its contribution to Canada, Harper told them how his party stood for traditional values and opposed same-sex marriages. For his part, Layton tried to please them by demanding a public inquiry into the Air-India case and official recognition for the five Sikh symbols (Ks) in Canada.<br /> <br /> Furthermore, all sorts of announcements have been made in recent days to ease the immigration process and visa rules for relatives and "recognise'' foreign degrees.<br /> <br /> The reasons for this wooing game are not far to seek. The Liberal party government of Prime Minister Paul Martin, which was already in minority, has been put in political jeopardy by the sponsorship scandal. The scandal happened when federal contracts were given to Liberal party-friendly ad firms for promoting nationalism (federalism) in Quebec after the narrow defeat of a referendum for that province's separatism from Canada in 1995.<br /> <br /> This $250 million scandal, called Adscam, is being now probed by Justice John Gomery. Revelations before the commission last week forced the Prime Minister to speak to people directly to plead for more time.<br /> <br /> Though the New Democratic Party, which has wrested concessions on the budget, has promised to bail out the Government when the no-trust motion comes up some time later, it is unlikley that the Government will survive.<br /> <br /> In a way, the Toronto show marked the kick-off of the campaign for the next general election which could come as soon as June.<br /> <br /> Amid this unfolding drama at the federal level, British Columbia province is already in the poll mode for the May 17 ballot to elect a new 79-member assembly.<br /> <br /> Here again, the Indo-Canadians, who constitute about 6-7 per cent of the provincial population, are a much sought-after community these days.<br /> <br /> In many constituencies (ridings) of Surrey, Delta, Richmond, Vancouver and Burnaby, Indo-Canadians are not only the deciding factor but are the deciders.<br /> <br /> As has happened in the past elections, both the ruling Liberal party and the Opposition New Democratic Party (NDP) have fielded quite a few Indo-Canadian candidates to win community votes.<br /> <br /> In fact, there are a record 15 Indo-Canadians in the fray -- seven from the Liberal party and nine from the NDP -- this time. In the outgoing assembly, there were seven Indo-Canadian MLAs -- six for the Liberal party and one for the NDP.<br /> <br /> Out of the six Liberal MLAs, two were -- both women Patty Sahota and Sindi Hawkins -- ministers of state. While the Liberals have retained all but one outgoing MLAs as their candidates, the NDP has given tickets to many new faces.<br /> <br /> Curiously, the youngest Indo-Canadian MLA Karn Manhas -- who in the 2001 elections became the youngest MLA in British Columbian history -- is not contesting this time. The Liberal party has replaced him with the most respected Indo-Canadian in this province. He is Justice Wally Oppal of the British Columbian Supreme Court.<br /> <br /> At 64, Oppal is the oldest Indo-Canadian ever to contest elections in this province and could be the next attorney general (who combines the roles of home minister and law minister in India) of the province. This job was also held by the current Canadian health minister Ujjal Dosanjh before he became the premier (equivalent of a chief minister in India) in February 2000. Interestingly, in three constituencies, it is an all Indo-Canadian affair.<br /> <br /> In Vancouver-Fraserview, Justice Oppal faces Ravindar Gill who is a former bus driver. And the sitting MLA, Jagrup Brar, of the NDP faces Bob Hans in Surrey-Panorama. Brar is a former basketball player for India and had won the November by-election from the same constituency.<br /> <br /> Raj Chouhan of the NDP and state minister Patty Sahota are locked in Burnaby-Edmonds.<br /> <br /> And then there is an honorary Indian called Toofan Singh aka Daniel Ogali, who is the Liberal candidate against Harry Bains of the NDP in Surrey-Newton.<br /> <br /> Ogali came to Canada as part of the Nigerian team for the Commonwealth Games in Victoria and stayed back to live with an Indo-Canadian family in Surrey. In the Sydney Olympics in 2000, he won Canada's first gold medal in wrestling.<br /> <br /> Because of his association with Indo-Canadians, Ogali became a very good player of kabbadi that earned him the nickname of 'Toofan' or Typhoon Singh.<br /> <br /> And this Typhoon is creating waves in British Columbia these days.<br /> <br /> http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5967_1342968,001600060011.htm[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> "Multiculturalism increasingly resembles the former Soviet Union, where a bureaucratic elite distributes wealth to competing ethnic groups, and is destined to fail." <br /> <br /> - Margaret Thatcher, former British PM

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= lesouris] You people are completely missing the point here. This is not an immigration issue. How many native-born Canadians disagree with gay marriage? I mean, five years ago the overwhelming majority of Canadians opposed SSM, why do you think we had to have the courts tell us that restricting marriage to heterosexual couples was unconstitutional?<br /> <br /> What makes immigrants any less Canadian than native born Canadians? What is Canadian anyway?<br /> <br /> Besides, immigrants know that if the notwithstanding clause is used to restrict gay marriage, it can as easily be used to restrict their rights.<br /> <br /> As a gay person (and as far as I know, the only one whose contributed to this thread) I know what I want, and that is equality before the law. I cannot be hypocritical in saying that other groups of people should give up their equality so that I can have mine. If we start screening immigrants to ensure that those who come here blindly conform to the views of the majority, we would be spitting in the face of those very laws we hold so dear.<br /> <br /> Seriously, how many of us would be here if immigration had be screened along those lines for the past 500 years. I mean, I don't think the fundementalist Catholics who setlled New France would be all that happy with gay marriage. Hell, they probably would be angry that we allow Protestants into our country now, or outlawed the slave trade! It's the same with every group whose ever come to Canada, but eventually they all become Canadian and our society grows. And if it wasn't for gay people fighting for our own rights for the past forty years, you'd all probably still think homosexuality should be a crime, not to mention SSM.<br /> <br /> Native-born Canadians have had forty years to adjust to the gay rights movement. Immigrants from all over the world have not had that time, and I am surprised that any of them support SSM, but some do. When you put this debate into that context it really says a lot about both groups, native-born and immigrant.<br /> <br /> Immigrants are not mindless drones, they are as individual as you or I, and it is despicible that we are actually having this debate in the 21st Century. Immigration is here to stay and if you don't like it, I think you'll find yourself right at home in the Heritage Front.<br /> <br /> So some foreign religious leader disagrees with the position taken by the Canadian government and the majority of the Canadian people, so what else is new? Believe me, twenty years after SSM is (finally) passed, no one will care any more but a handful of fundementalists. It's just like the divorce debate or the women's lib debate, no one cares anymore.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> What is Canadian? What makes immigrants any less Canadian than native born Canadians?<br /> <br /> I'll throw this back at you, seeing as Canada is 84% white European, are the Al-Qaeda connected fundamentalist Khadr family just as Canadian as those who are native born? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> And how many aboriginals were killed (either purposefully or by accident) before Europeans made the majority? If the Khadr family have their citizenship they are, by default, as Canadian as you or I. I mean, what seperates them from the families of those in the FLQ? Only where they were born. We're all human, and the way you're talking about Canada, it's as like Canadians are superior to all other peoples. We're not.<br /> <br /> The attitudes towards immigrants that some people in this discussion are exhibiting are just beyond my comprehension. It is just astounding to me that anyone can make judgements about whole races of people. The white people in this country (myself included) need to wake up and realize that this isn't our country, not exclusively at least. Canada is a country for everyone, and if you can't understand that, well, I feel sorry for you.<br /> <br /> In ten years, visible minorities will make up the majority of the population in Toronto and Vancouver. In a few more, Montreal will also loose its status as a majority city. In a few more, so will Calgary. Eventually, we will be a country of minorities, and I see no problem with that as long as we get along.<br /> <br /> Okay, I know I'm being a bit idealistic here, but if we were all a little more idealistic, maybe we'd be motivated to actually accomplish something good.

[samuel]

Excuse me lesouris but you sound like the B'nai Brith who jump all over the subject "for fear" of it somehow being racist in nature.This is about mismanagement of immigration. There is absolutely no valid reason why it shouldn't be discussed.<br /> <br /> Don't you understand there is a difference between 1 million immigrants of a diversified origin and 1 million of a single origin? The political ramifications of the later are significant, what don't you understand about 6 MPs and 1 million constituents to back them up?<br /> <br /> Here is the quote again in case you missed it:<br /> <br /> <b>"The basic duty of Sikh MPs in Canada should be to support laws that stop this kind of practice [homosexuality], because there are thousands of Sikhs living in Canada, to ensure that Sikhs do not fall prey to this practice," he said in a report published Monday.<br /> <br /> "Nobody would support such a person having such dirty thoughts in their mind because it is against the Sikh religion and the Sikh code of conduct and totally against the laws of nature."</b>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= lesouris] You people are completely missing the point here. This is not an immigration issue. How many native-born Canadians disagree with gay marriage? I mean, five years ago the overwhelming majority of Canadians opposed SSM, why do you think we had to have the courts tell us that restricting marriage to heterosexual couples was unconstitutional?<br /> <br /> What makes immigrants any less Canadian than native born Canadians? What is Canadian anyway?<br /> <br /> Besides, immigrants know that if the notwithstanding clause is used to restrict gay marriage, it can as easily be used to restrict their rights.<br /> <br /> As a gay person (and as far as I know, the only one whose contributed to this thread) I know what I want, and that is equality before the law. I cannot be hypocritical in saying that other groups of people should give up their equality so that I can have mine. If we start screening immigrants to ensure that those who come here blindly conform to the views of the majority, we would be spitting in the face of those very laws we hold so dear.<br /> <br /> Seriously, how many of us would be here if immigration had be screened along those lines for the past 500 years. I mean, I don't think the fundementalist Catholics who setlled New France would be all that happy with gay marriage. Hell, they probably would be angry that we allow Protestants into our country now, or outlawed the slave trade! It's the same with every group whose ever come to Canada, but eventually they all become Canadian and our society grows. And if it wasn't for gay people fighting for our own rights for the past forty years, you'd all probably still think homosexuality should be a crime, not to mention SSM.<br /> <br /> Native-born Canadians have had forty years to adjust to the gay rights movement. Immigrants from all over the world have not had that time, and I am surprised that any of them support SSM, but some do. When you put this debate into that context it really says a lot about both groups, native-born and immigrant.<br /> <br /> Immigrants are not mindless drones, they are as individual as you or I, and it is despicible that we are actually having this debate in the 21st Century. Immigration is here to stay and if you don't like it, I think you'll find yourself right at home in the Heritage Front.<br /> <br /> So some foreign religious leader disagrees with the position taken by the Canadian government and the majority of the Canadian people, so what else is new? Believe me, twenty years after SSM is (finally) passed, no one will care any more but a handful of fundementalists. It's just like the divorce debate or the women's lib debate, no one cares anymore.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> What is Canadian? What makes immigrants any less Canadian than native born Canadians?<br /> <br /> I'll throw this back at you, seeing as Canada is 84% white European, are the Al-Qaeda connected fundamentalist Khadr family just as Canadian as those who are native born? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> And how many aboriginals were killed (either purposefully or by accident) before Europeans made the majority? If the Khadr family have their citizenship they are, by default, as Canadian as you or I. I mean, what seperates them from the families of those in the FLQ? Only where they were born. We're all human, and the way you're talking about Canada, it's as like Canadians are superior to all other peoples. We're not.<br /> <br /> The attitudes towards immigrants that some people in this discussion are exhibiting are just beyond my comprehension. It is just astounding to me that anyone can make judgements about whole races of people. The white people in this country (myself included) need to wake up and realize that this isn't our country, not exclusively at least. Canada is a country for everyone, and if you can't understand that, well, I feel sorry for you.<br /> <br /> In ten years, visible minorities will make up the majority of the population in Toronto and Vancouver. In a few more, Montreal will also loose its status as a majority city. In a few more, so will Calgary. Eventually, we will be a country of minorities, and I see no problem with that as long as we get along.<br /> <br /> Okay, I know I'm being a bit idealistic here, but if we were all a little more idealistic, maybe we'd be motivated to actually accomplish something good.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Lesouris, you've fallen for the cult of equality, the social utopian marxism of Pierre Trudeau's generation.<br /> <br /> Lester Pearson's minister of immigration admitted in 1967 that multiculturalism was "an attempt to break Tory Toronto." It worked--Toronto now goes Liberal.<br /> <br /> Don't get me wrong, "diversity" is happening in every western country, not just here, but to say "anyone" can be Canadian basically oppresses the majority cultures who have built this country for decades, even centuries.<br /> <br /> Some dissenting voices keep trying to tell people that races compete, but no one listens. <br /> <br /> To say the Khadr family is as Canadian as you or I is an insult to the 84% majority. Big time.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Lesouris, you've fallen for the cult of equality, the social utopian marxism of Pierre Trudeau's generation.<br /> <br /> Lester Pearson's minister of immigration admitted in 1967 that multiculturalism was "an attempt to break Tory Toronto." It worked--Toronto now goes Liberal.<br /> <br /> Don't get me wrong, "diversity" is happening in every western country, not just here, but to say "anyone" can be Canadian basically oppresses the majority cultures who have built this country for decades, even centuries.<br /> <br /> Some dissenting voices keep trying to tell people that races compete, but no one listens. <br /> <br /> To say the Khadr family is as Canadian as you or I is an insult to the 84% majority. Big time.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What seperates the 84% from the 16%? It is skin colour, and I find it insulting that you first of all assume all people of colour are new to this country (just look at the examples of Black Loyalists, Chinese railway workers, and who can forget the Aboriginals, who were here first), secondly that you assume all white people are not immigrants (look at the levels of immigration from Eastern Europe, Italy, and Portugal), and thirdly that we still draw the lines between race as if we are all different. We aren't, and anything that is different about us can be explained by regional differences that are present amongst all the races. For instance, the white people of the Balkans have much more in common culturally with the Turkish people then with the Norwegians.<br /> <br /> I also think that the belief that all immigrants to Canada come from one country (ie India) is a complete lie. Sure, a lot of people come from India, but a lot of people also come from the Philipines, South America, China, and Arabic nations.<br /> <br /> I'm not saying there aren't problems with the immigration system; we do not sufficiently prepare immigrants for entry into the workforce, there is a significant backlog in the immigration files, and we accept far too few refugees. We also need an appeal process for those immigrants who are deported. <br /> <br /> Judges in immigration cases need to be more sensitive to immigrants, and need to abandoned their prejudices. For instance, there was a Mexican man living in Canada as a refugee from persecution in Mexico based on his sexual orientation. He was deported because the judge didn't believe that he was gay enough (meaning he wasn't feminine enough), and he had no where to turn to appeal. That is unacceptable.<br /> <br /> The problem is not with the immigrants, the problem is with us. We treat them like imports of cargo, and occasionally as a novelty from a far off land. Immigrants are people, real people. Regardless of race, or culture, or political view, they are people. They have lives that they hope can be made better in our country. They understand the progressive nature in our society and recognize that it is that progressivism that protects them from blatant persecution here. You say I belong to the Cult of Equality, well I'd rather fall into that sect than into the Cult of Intolerance. Afterall, that cult has dominated the world throughout history manifesting itself in genocide, slavery, imperialism, war, forced relocation, racial segregation, terrorism, and religious strife. The sad thing is that all of this happened in our country - mainly perpetrated by the "white" majority (or minority before the near extermination of the Aboriginal people).

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= Perturbed] Lesouris, you've fallen for the cult of equality, the social utopian marxism of Pierre Trudeau's generation.<br /> <br /> Lester Pearson's minister of immigration admitted in 1967 that multiculturalism was "an attempt to break Tory Toronto." It worked--Toronto now goes Liberal.<br /> <br /> Don't get me wrong, "diversity" is happening in every western country, not just here, but to say "anyone" can be Canadian basically oppresses the majority cultures who have built this country for decades, even centuries.<br /> <br /> Some dissenting voices keep trying to tell people that races compete, but no one listens. <br /> <br /> To say the Khadr family is as Canadian as you or I is an insult to the 84% majority. Big time.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What seperates the 84% from the 16%? It is skin colour, and I find it insulting that you first of all assume all people of colour are new to this country (just look at the examples of Black Loyalists, Chinese railway workers, and who can forget the Aboriginals, who were here first), secondly that you assume all white people are not immigrants (look at the levels of immigration from Eastern Europe, Italy, and Portugal), and thirdly that we still draw the lines between race as if we are all different. We aren't, and anything that is different about us can be explained by regional differences that are present amongst all the races. For instance, the white people of the Balkans have much more in common culturally with the Turkish people then with the Norwegians.<br /> <br /> I also think that the belief that all immigrants to Canada come from one country (ie India) is a complete lie. Sure, a lot of people come from India, but a lot of people also come from the Philipines, South America, China, and Arabic nations.<br /> <br /> I'm not saying there aren't problems with the immigration system; we do not sufficiently prepare immigrants for entry into the workforce, there is a significant backlog in the immigration files, and we accept far too few refugees. We also need an appeal process for those immigrants who are deported. <br /> <br /> Judges in immigration cases need to be more sensitive to immigrants, and need to abandoned their prejudices. For instance, there was a Mexican man living in Canada as a refugee from persecution in Mexico based on his sexual orientation. He was deported because the judge didn't believe that he was gay enough (meaning he wasn't feminine enough), and he had no where to turn to appeal. That is unacceptable.<br /> <br /> The problem is not with the immigrants, the problem is with us. We treat them like imports of cargo, and occasionally as a novelty from a far off land. Immigrants are people, real people. Regardless of race, or culture, or political view, they are people. They have lives that they hope can be made better in our country. They understand the progressive nature in our society and recognize that it is that progressivism that protects them from blatant persecution here. You say I belong to the Cult of Equality, well I'd rather fall into that sect than into the Cult of Intolerance. Afterall, that cult has dominated the world throughout history manifesting itself in genocide, slavery, imperialism, war, forced relocation, racial segregation, terrorism, and religious strife. The sad thing is that all of this happened in our country - mainly perpetrated by the "white" majority (or minority before the near extermination of the Aboriginal people).[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> While many of the things you say are totally correct, it doesn't change the fact that immigration is a selfish act these days--if not always. They don't come here to celebrate the democracy we have built. They come here to reap the benefits of the democracy we have built. They bring their retired parents for free health care--paid for by us. They come here for social assistance--$1000 per person per month, while urban dwellers can't find affordable housing.<br /> <br /> I agree they are people, but the idea that we aren't preparing them for the workforce ignores the fact that we aren't preparing our own for the work force either--there are very few secure, well-paying jobs being created in this country--many are in fact leaving, so what was that about needing more workers? Who ran the covenience stores and drove the taxis before?<br /> <br /> I don't see why we are paying people to learn English--if they even want to learn it at all. How do they afford the flights back and forth to see their family back home? Why are we paying them to learn English if multiculturalism means non-assimilation officially?<br /> <br /> I get the impression that many won't be satisfied until white people are made to suffer for their "past atrocities" of builiding a country against incredible odds. Many clearly want white people to suffer the same fate as the natives, even though it is a choice for us, not an inevitability. People are so fraudulent of success, they'd rather hate themselves and feel sorry for everyone except the majority who has been told that citizenship is worthless, English Canadians are evildoer imperialists, and that newcomers deserve special privileges they haven't earned.<br /> <br /> People that only usually sell to their own communities (the majority of ethnic groups in Toronto trust me) should not be given a cent of taxpayers money to learn English. They create no jobs for anyone other than their own families and friends.<br /> <br /> English Canadians should abandon their public prejudices and defamation of their own history and admit that life isn't fair and never has been. We've gone from being pioneers to being evildoers. My how time changes everything.

[lesouris]

To me immigration isn't about tax money. It's about my friends and family members who have come to this country from all over the world. It's about the communities like the Tamils who come here from war torn Sri Lanka just to live in a land of peace. It's about the friendly Chinese woman who barely spoke a word of English, yet gave me my first job. It's about travelling the world without ever leaving my city. It's about giving everyone the same chance my ancestors had. It's about the great big human family, and how we can all come together and live in one country successfully.<br /> <br /> I think your forgetting Perturbed that immigrants pay taxes too. Who knows, maybe one day you'll need a major operation that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, paid for, in part, by immigrants (of course, I would never wish that upon you though). Besides, our governments pay much more money for us to learn French in school, which for at least 75% (and that's being generous) of the population of Ontario, is a huge waste of money that could be managed better.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] To me immigration isn't about tax money. It's about my friends and family members who have come to this country from all over the world. It's about the communities like the Tamils who come here from war torn Sri Lanka just to live in a land of peace. It's about the friendly Chinese woman who barely spoke a word of English, yet gave me my first job. It's about travelling the world without ever leaving my city. It's about giving everyone the same chance my ancestors had. It's about the great big human family, and how we can all come together and live in one country successfully.<br /> <br /> I think your forgetting Perturbed that immigrants pay taxes too. Who knows, maybe one day you'll need a major operation that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, paid for, in part, by immigrants (of course, I would never wish that upon you though). Besides, our governments pay much more money for us to learn French in school, which for at least 75% (and that's being generous) of the population of Ontario, is a huge waste of money that could be managed better.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I'm not calling you wrong. However, I don't think we are responsible for the fact that Sri Lanka is a failed soceity.<br /> <br /> If you favour the Marxist "One big happy family" then fine. However, I think when we become the minority we'll face major discrimination and wonder what happened. Once you lose the political control.....

[The Saint]

I find it very hypocritical of the Sikh colonies to oppose same sex marriages considering the lengthes they have gone to to shape Canadian society and law to adapt to their religion and culture. Let us not forget the intolerance they displayed towards that Canadian icon: the Mountie uniform. The crusading Sikh responsible for imposing the Sikh identity upon an icon of Canadiana admitted that that was essentially his reason for doing so. Nor can we forget the intolerance Sikhs displayed towards the Royal Canadian Legion over its tradition of removing one's head wear upon entering a legion building out of respect for the dead. I guess their imported foreign culture is more important than a domestically born one. Nor can we forget the myriad of instances Sikhs sought exemption from by-laws to allow them the wearing of a ceremonial kirpan. I guess their relgion is more important than laws concerning public safety.<br /> <br /> Ironically, the rights of gays and lesbians can be advanced due to the diverse and "tolerant" society Sikhs have helped build. But I guess Sikhs were only concenred about THEIR rights and tolerance towards them. God forbid they do the same for others. Sikhs cannot expect Canadian laws, traditions, and institutions to change to benefit them yet at the same time fight aginst changing laws that would accomodate those who pursue a lifestyle disagreeable to their religion. They are just hypocrites outright. <br /> <br /> Their clustering is a real danger to democracy in this country. The Indo-Canadian manipualtion of our democratic practices in the B.C. NDP leadership election a few years back that saw the election of Usal Dosanjh as premier was practically a display of fraud and ballot stuffing. <br /> <br /> It is not a good thing that this country is importing too many people judt two countries in the world. We are not becoming a nation of immigrants. We are becoming a nation of colonies with all the inherent competition.<br /> <br /> BTW. Tamils are not real refugees by UN definitions. They are mostly con men and women who know a sucker when they see one. And now they can influence ten federal ridings in this country. What a lovely nation we are building.

[lesouris]

If Sikhs are intolerant (which has not been my experience), we are just as guilty as being intolerant of them. Why can't we just get along?<br /> <br /> And BTW the turban is a mandated part of the religion of devouted Sikh men. Telling them not to wear it is like telling Jewish men not to get circumcised, or telling Buddhists they must drink beer because its part of Canadian culture. Right now, I am a minority where I live, and honestly, I don't care at all.<br /> <br /> Many immigrants want to adopt some Canadian customs, and they want to meld their two cultures together in a way. I know immigrants who own cottages up in cottage country and whose children listen to Shania Twain. I mean, throughout Canadian history it has been winter which has really brought us all together culturally whether French or English or Aboriginal. You can't expect a person from tropical India to come to Canada and maintain their entire culture throughout the winter. It's impossible. <br /> <br /> There is also the very interesting example of children of immigrants (or immigrants who arrive here in their childhood) who live bi-cultural lives and can basically switch between their two cultures depending on who their with (for an example in film, see Bend it Like Beckham, keeping in mind it was written by an immigrant who grew up in the West).

[samuel]

Well said The Saint. I'm relieved Québec diversifies immigration, I just had a vision of our Bonhomme Carnaval wearing a Turban rather than a tuque <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'><br /> <br /> Canadian Tradition & <a href="http://www.sikhs.org/100th/baltej1.jpg">The New Mountie</a>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Well said The Saint. I'm relieved Québec diversifies immigration, I just had a vision of our Bonhomme Carnaval wearing a Turban rather than a tuque <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'><br /> <br /> Canadian Tradition & <a href="http://www.sikhs.org/100th/baltej1.jpg">The New Mountie</a>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>