[Macdonald/Borden]

Sure were a Christian nation, where do you think all of our progressive values come from???? Karl Marx?? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> <br />Look Michou I was responding to Lesouris because he was spewing the same type of leftwing propaganda that supporters constantly use to try and convince social-conservatives that the battle is lost and to just give up, it won't happen. There only hearing what they want to hear, public opinion is not at all clearly in favour of changing marriage so lets at least slow down the band wagen and talk OK? Thats partly why Im glad the Liberals won a minority even though Im a member, it will make it harder for Paul Martin to just rush into some more controversial policies without at least some type of broad pan-Canadian support! <br /> <br />Cathou you are right a lot of it has to do with tradition, and a government has to be very careful even if it has the best of intentions before it goes changing a nation's traditions, values, customs and morales. <br /> <br />I understand where people like you Cathou, Macarc and even Lesauris are coming from when you say that you support Gay Marriage. You do not want to corrupt family or marriage (at least most supporters don't, I think) but you want to ensure people's equality. What most supporters do not understand, is that the millions of Canadians (I would say a majority) who do not want to see marriage changed do not take their stance out of bigotry or hatred, but out of love for our country's traditions and values, and what's wrong with that??? <br /> <br />By the way - Cathou you're English is very good! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'> <br />It takes a LOT of patience to learn a second language fluently when you are not a child and you are not living among people who speak that language, a reason why my French is so poor .

[Macdonald/Borden]

Also, <br />Lesouris even if marriage is legally changed, it doesn't mean that we can't go back later on and change it back again. If marriage is changed in an undemocratic fashion as I believe it probably will be, there would be fairly broad support for an action like that!

[michou]

self censored

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] First of all do not try and compare the "gay marriage movement" in any way, shape or form to the civil rights movement. Gays are not denied equality under the law, we are a Christian nation, and therefore our values must always be kept the same to reflect that. And in our religion and culture, one thing shall never change and that is that marriage is what it is, you dont like it move to Belgium!!![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Maybe you should look at the arguements used against mixed-race marriage before you tell me that I shouldn't make a comparison, because the exact, the EXACT, same arguements are being used against SSM. I am offended that you would assume Canada is a Christian nation because you happen to be a Christian and a Canadian. Maybe you should try telling people with traditional native beliefs which has been here longer than Christianity, Jewish people who have been here for over one hundred years, Muslims, Hindus, and Sikhs who have all been here for over seventy years, and many more groups that they have not contributed to Canada and should not influence our Christian theocracy. <br /> <br />I am an agnostic myself, but I was raised Catholic, and I find it extremely offensive for you to assert that because the majority of Canadians are Christian, they all believe in your reactionary, homophobic lies. The United Church is Christian, but they believe in SSM also. I find it in extremely bad taste to assume that Christians are the only people who have ever done good. <br /> <br />I assume that your assertion that Canada is a Christian nation is based on the preamble of the Constitution of Canada that recognizes "the supremecy of God". Unfortunately for you to use that arguement, you must first assume that all other people are godless, which is all to often apparent in rightwing Christian propoganda. And then you must assume that God does not want for there to be SSM, which is a very hard arguement to make (unless you put your trust in one interpretation of a 3000 year old story about a lost city where men rape angels and God turns an innocent woman into a pillar of salt). <br /> <br />I have to ask you Macdonald/Borden if you have ever met a gay person, and if so, did they do something horrible to you? <br /> <br />I am gay and I have heard all of your arguements over and over again before, and yet I still don't understand how someone could be so oblivious to the fact that the world changes, the paradigm shifts, and Canada as a nation, is moving away from religious fundementalism. You say if I don't like your position on SSM, I should move to Belgium; well considering a majority of Canadians already live in jurisdictions where SSM is legal, maybe it is you who should be moving to the US. <br /> <br />BTW, the only time in recent history gay rights have been revoked was in Nazi Germany by Hitler, a fundementalist Catholic.

[cathou79]

[QUOTE BY= Macdonald/Borden] First of all do not try and compare the "gay marriage movement" in any way, shape or form to the civil rights movement. Gays are not denied equality under the law, we are a Christian nation, and therefore our values must always be kept the same to reflect that. And in our religion and culture, one thing shall never change and that is that marriage is what it is, you dont like it move to Belgium!!! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />maybe it's time to change our value. You always promote the multiculturism of the canada but, yet, say that this is a christian nation. But you're right, this is indeed a christian (catholic or protestant) nation and even if we like to promote the fact that we separate church and state, you can be damn sure that it's not true in reality. Church dont like gays and use all the remaining political influence in their hand to outlaw it. In my head i'm a catholic, but in fact my own church rejected me. A priest refuse to give me communion because i told in confession that i was homosexual, and that i refuse to "regret my sins furthermore by refusing to not be homosexual, and so to join the herd of god". i was 17 at this time, i was in exil away from my friends and family who had rejected me and religion was all that was left to me. Do you know how it hurt to heard that when you are just a lost little girl suddently catapulted in an hostile adult world ? <br /> <br />you said that you understand us when we say that we support gay marriage ? but yet you say that we dont want to contaminate marriage or familly... i suffer enough in the name of you so-call value and familly. now i want me own familly, i want that the society accept that me and my girlfriend are an active part of that society and that we contribute to it the same way you do. Just look at the actual divorce rate. do you really think we can screw up marriage more than that ??

[Crankster]

This debate will go on and on and on and on.......In the eyes of the church its wrong,in the eyes of the gov(well, they are still crossed).Who knows.it may become an excepted norm!Those that aren't gay,why does it bother us so much? Those that are,same question. <br /> I think we all need to step back and think about those reasons that define the decision we made to agree or disagree. <br /> Is it really any of our business if Johnny next door is a fudge-packer,or Susan down the street is ...whatever!/

[Dino]

Canada a christian nation? I've never in my 20 years of life heard anyone say it's a christian nation. I think our country is alot better at keeping church and state seperate. We've never really heard a Prime Minister say " God Bless Canada." Let's keep it that way. <br /> <br />Gay rights are human rights. Some say that marriage is not a right but in Canada everyone needs to be treated the same way.There for I completly support gay marriage. I'm from Saskatchewan and they just recently legalized it and to the people in this province it wasn't a big deal. I personally can't stand why people who are against it make a big deal about it. Two women or men getting married is not a big deal. And cathou79 is right heterosexual marriages have a 50% chance of lasting. Gay couples can't certainly do any worse! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Kory Yamashita]

Macdonald/Borden: <br /> <br />Canada is a christian nation? The last time someone said that to me, she was screaming in my face at 8am on a bus to UBC. Everyone on the bus started telling her we live in a non-secular state. <br /> <br />My family has been here over a hundred years, has laboured hard to make a living, has been systematically discriminated against, was stolen from by the Canadian government during WW2, was imprisoned by the Canadian government during WW2, had our citizenship revoked by the Canadian government, despite being born on Canadian soil. My family has suffered at the hands of this nation, and still we remain here to fight to improve it. And we are quite decidedly NOT Christian. If this is a Christian nation, does that make me less Canadian than you are? <br /> <br />And what are these progressive Christian values you are referring to? <br /> <br />Are you talking about the catholic church sending missionaries to Africa to brainwash the population there into believing that condoms are evil, even as the AIDS epidemic sweeps across the continent, devastating their people? <br /> <br />No wait. You must be talking about the values that force priests to suppress their sexual urges to such a point that they turn to raping 6 year old boys. <br /> <br /> <br />Now, you want to talk about gay marriage? Well since any church can conduct a marriage, any church should be able to decide for themselves who can be married. If you happen to belong to a religion that doesn't support your lifestyle, perhaps its time to look for a new religion. <br /> <br />I believe all people, regardless of colour or creed, or who they have sex with, should be treated equally. Gay marriage should be fully legal, but churches shouldn't be forced to marry gay couples. Some churches WILL marry gay couples, and all the more power to them. <br /> <br />I can't believe this is still an issue. The only people that are REALLY affected by gay marriage are gays who want to get married. So why on earth would anyone ever try to deny them that right? It's cultural imperialism to deny gays the right to marry.

[Macdonald/Borden]

OK Kory I am going to reply to you first because you found it necassary to insult the Catholic Church. The church's stance on contraceptives might be outdated, but they are hardly preaching to Africans to brainwash them. The Roman Catholic Church has 700 million followers world wide and is responsible for FAR more humanitarian aid to poor nations than ANY of the other faiths combined, THOSE ARE CHRISTIAN VALUES!! <br /> <br />Yes they did decide to enforce celibacy among priests, but it is hardly forcing most priests to assault young boys, you will find sick individuals like that in ANY profession, so do not even begin blaming that on our religion. I am sorry for what you're ancestors went through, but EVERY nation has made it's mistakes that hardly makes Canada an unprogressive nation. We have ugly mistakes in our past, like when every MP except John Diefenbaker (God Rest His Soul) voted to intern Japanese-Canadians, but we also have a LONG history since independence and even before independence in some ways of working to make everybody equal and of expanding and moving forward through compromise rather than conquest! Yes Canada is a progressive nation!!! <br />My ancestors were starved, cleansed and murdered back in Ireland way back when, but that doesn't mean I think England is a nation of savages. <br /> <br />Michou if you oppose religion that's you're own decision which you are free to make, but myself I believe in God personally and I view Christianity as a religion which is FAR more morale, humane and libertarian than any of that socialist nonsense! <br /> <br />Im kind of in a hury right now so Ill reply to the rest later on!But Lesauris Im very offended that you would call me a homophobe, I made it quite clear that I do not "hate" or dislike ANYBODY!! <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

[Dr Caleb]

Sorry bud. If you search Vive for other stories on this subject, you'll see my same comments. Since you play both the 'race', 'homophobe' and 'Nazi' card in one post, I have to reply. So Here goes: <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />I am an agnostic myself, but I was raised Catholic, and I find it extremely offensive for you to assert that because the majority of Canadians are Christian, they all believe in your reactionary, homophobic lies. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Then, knowing Catholocism as you do, you will understand that those who are Christian and believe in the Bible consider it's teaching as unmutable. Homosexuality is specifically against those teachings. You should not be surprised by the reaction of Christians, and playing the 'Homophobe' card results in a 10 yard penalty, 2nd down. <br /> <br />That being said, that doesn't mean Christians are against gay rights. Most if not the vast majority of Canadians are willing to see that all Canadians have the same rights, including minorities and specifically the Gay community. People such as myself find it apalling that two people who care about each other may be shut out during times of an emergency - such as not being able to visit the one you love in the hospital, because the relationship is not recognised under law. <br /> <br />Most people are willing to give same sex couples those rights, right now. Without a fight. We just want the word 'marriage' to keep it's current definition. Yes, that means that perhaps you won't have that word and the social state that it implies. <br /> <br />I know what the word 'marriage' means to me, which is why I want to keep it, if only for a generation or so. I know that it probabally meant the same for a same sex couple, and they would like to have that state of relationship as well. But let's not forget, Canada is ruled by the Majority, not the Minority. Same sex couples have to realize they are the minority, and changing the definition of a word will not make the Christian Majority accept nor condone the relationship of a same-sex couple. We can fight for your right to be equal under the law, but we can fight just as hard to preserve what we believe to be a special relationship as well. But we cannot under our faith condone your relationship. <br /> <br />If you choose to play the 'homophobe' card, well, you only do yourself a disservice. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />The United Church is Christian, but they believe in SSM also. I find it in extremely bad taste to assume that Christians are the only people who have ever done good.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Which is why I no longer attend the United Church. If they believe in the God of Moses, and the Bible is the Word of God, then God specifically disallows SSM. I would have left them, had they started condoning murder, theft, or group sex among neighbours. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />I assume that your assertion that Canada is a Christian nation is based on the preamble of the Constitution of Canada that recognizes "the supremecy of God". [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />The Constitution does not specify which 'God'. Yahweh, Jehova, Thor, Vishnu, Clulhtu, Lucifer Morningstar . . . <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />I have to ask you Macdonald/Borden if you have ever met a gay person, and if so, did they do something horrible to you?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Now, you are being just as predjudicial as you claim he is being. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />I am gay and I have heard all of your arguements over and over again before, and yet I still don't understand how someone could be so oblivious to the fact that the world changes, the paradigm shifts, and Canada as a nation, is moving away from religious fundementalism.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Some of us are old, and set in our ways. As above, we want every Canadian to be equal, but don't expect society to change overnight. Perhaps not even in this generation. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />BTW, the only time in recent history gay rights have been revoked was in Nazi Germany by Hitler, a fundementalist Catholic.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I hereby invoke Godwin's law, with special attention tot he Second Axiom. If I could, I would now lock this thread before someone violates Vive policies. <br /> <br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law <br />

[Dino]

There are people in African nations that will not use condoms because it's agianst there catholic religion. <br /> <br />If the pope said it was ok to use condoms he would be saving alot of lives. <br /> <br />He's views are so outdated it's ridiculous.

[Macdonald/Borden]

I 100% agree dino, thanks for backing me up I was starting to think that I was the only opponent of changing marriage on this forum! Lesauris I made it QUITE CLEAR that I am 100% NOT bigoted and NOT homophobic, I have known Gay people in the past who were quite decent guys, not the sick perverts that I was taught to think of them as when I was a kid. <br /> <br />Just because I support the traditional definition of marriage, does not mean that I don't want to see EVERYBODY (incl. you're community) treated equally under the law. It is not the same as mixed marriage relationships, Jesus was NEVER a racist!! <br /> <br />I don't think that God hates gays and lesbians, I just believe that he meant marriage to be between men and women, period. Sorry, I did not mean to offend either yourself or Cathou, but those are my beliefs. If you expect others to respect you're beliefs, values and lifestyles than you must show the same respect towards others even socially-conservative Christians. Opponents of same sex marriage are not bigots or fundamentalists, were regular people (just like you social-liberals) who only want to defend our religion and preserve our nation's values. <br /> <br />You imply that my views are some how "American" and un-Canadian, that's not fair. Like it or not, we are a Christian nation. That does not mean that we are not completey open to Jews, Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus as their values are very similar to our own, it does not make non-Christians (even agnostics) any less Canadian than Christians. but you have to respect the fact that we built this nation, yes it was stolen from Aboriginals and that was horrible, but we have worked (with some mistakes along the road) to make this nation into a progressive model for the world with admirable success! <br /> <br />No nation was built on peace completely (not even Quebec). England was stolen from the Celts by Angles and Saxons, Ireland was stolen from a little known Aboriginal people by the Gaels (and than from the Gaels by the Normans), France was stolen from the Gauls by the Romans and than the Franks, and even Kwazulu/Natal (once called Zululand) was stolen from it's original San inhabitants by Bantu Zulu invaders from the north. Every nation has a bloody history, there were even wars between Aboriginal nations before we came! That does not make us savage or unprogressive!

[Macdonald/Borden]

Im sorry I meant to say I 100% agree, Dr. Caleb, I was paying attention to something else when I read you're post!

[Dino]

Macdonald/borden I completely support gay marriage. To me it shouldn't even be an issue because gay rights are human rights. I don't think that your some bigot or redneck because you don't support gay marriage. I just do because if I was gay I would want equal rights like every other heterosexual. <br /> <br />Canada a christian nation? Ummmmm no. That sounds stupid. Canada is so multicultural that calling it a Christian nation doesn't make sense.

[Macdonald/Borden]

Also Lesauris learn you're history. Hitler might have been baptized Catholic, but he was hardly a fundemantalist Catholic. He made an alliance with the church after he formed an alliance with Mussolini, but by the middle of the war he had completely turned on the church and he was throwing the faithful into Concentration Camps!!!!!! <br /> <br />Also it should be noted that he dispised his own religion, so how could he be a fundamentalist? Before he changed from being an enemy of Italy to an ally in 1938, he described Roman Catholicism as a "desease". And personally I do not think he was really homophobic, one of his closest friends in the beginning and the founder of the brownshirts, Ernst Rohm was very openly Gay. It was only after Goering and Himmler convinced Hitler to purge Rohm and his followers in 1934 that the Nazi Party adopted a homophobic position. Before that there where homosexuals like Rohm in the ranks of the party. <br /> <br />It was horrible how they threw Gays and Lesbians into Concentration Camps during the holocaust, but I think his acceptance of homophobia sprang more from his personal disagreements and fued with Rohm than it did from his personal views!