[badsector]

From here it seems that increase in gun violance has a simple root cause: lawyers and judges benefit from crime, it's their livelihood. A cop said on City Pulse that they see the same criminals getting arrested then getting out on bail to commit more crime, day after day. The scumbags know that they can get away with crime. Here is an idea: force lawyers and judges to try violent criminals free of charge, in their own time. The same time slap a minimum 10 year jail sentence (with no bail and/or parole!) on anyone guily of a gun crime, any gun crime. That would get the trash off the streets in no time.<br /> <br /> It is true, that poverty has a lot to do with crime. A life in poverty and desparation, raised by parents who have no idea how to lead a decent life, and bad company can easily lead to a life of crime. While it's important to resolve the contributing social issues, it is also important that society defend itself from criminals. When I read about the young girl who went shopping with her parents on Boxing Day, then got shot in the head, I felt no sympathy for the purpotrators. They should be put away for life, starved and beaten up with sticks every day, or better yet impaled alive liek in the middle ages and I don't care how hard they had it. These scumbags have no rights as far as I am concerned.

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= badsector]It is true, that poverty has a lot to do with crime. A life in poverty and desparation, raised by parents who have no idea how to lead a decent life, and bad company can easily lead to a life of crime. While it's important to resolve the contributing social issues, it is also important that society defend itself from criminals. When I read about the young girl who went shopping with her parents on Boxing Day, then got shot in the head, I felt no sympathy for the purpotrators. They should be put away for life, starved and beaten up with sticks every day, or better yet impaled alive liek in the middle ages and I don't care how hard they had it. These scumbags have no rights as far as I am concerned.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What is your point? We can't 'impale alive' criminals. That would be a violation of a multitude of international human rights codes. <br /> <br /> The key here is to stomp the guts out of these damned socialist groups which are blaming society 'for what happened'.<br /> <br /> At best, we can hope that more gang-members kill each other, and basically the 'social-exclusion' part of society will go to 'self-correcting'.<br /> <br /> All what the cops have to do is to ensure that no whites are shot...and only allow the ghetto-blacks to keep shooting each other.<br /> <br /> I frankly don't give a damn if people call this a 'racist' issue. I don't care:<br /> <br /> THE BULLET THAT KILLED THAT GIRL DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE.<br /> <br /> To be totally honest (since I am on a roll), the government is only going to worse the situation. I GUARANTEE you that Mayor Miller is only going to make everything worse. Toronto is going to go to hell, and the media will relentlessly keep blaming the Americans NO MATTER WHAT.<br /> <br /> Jack Layton should be ashamed of himself, 'Social-exclusion' is just another means for him to grab more power, but not help anyone.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> At best, we can hope that more gang-members kill each other, <br /> <br /> All what the cops have to do is to ensure that no whites are shot...and only allow the ghetto-blacks to keep shooting each other.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> THE BULLET THAT KILLED THAT GIRL DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> So, you start off with 'let them kill each other', but you don't care if more innocents get killed in the process (so long as they aren't 'white').<br /> <br /> You're far more mentally challenged than I had originally thought.<br />

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> At best, we can hope that more gang-members kill each other, <br /> <br /> All what the cops have to do is to ensure that no whites are shot...and only allow the ghetto-blacks to keep shooting each other.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Rabblewatch]<br /> THE BULLET THAT KILLED THAT GIRL DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> So, you start off with 'let them kill each other', but you don't care if more innocents get killed in the process (so long as they aren't 'white').<br /> <br /> You're far more mentally challenged than I had originally thought.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Figured you'd single out that line.<br /> <br /> Yep. You caught me. I'm a racist and I hate blacks, and I hope they'll all kill each other, so long as whites don't get nicked, I won't have any problems with that.<br /> <br /> .<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> .<br /> <br /> <br /> .<br /> <br /> Coast is clear?<br /> <br /> Alright, so while Dr. Caleb is dining on the latest tidbit I threw him. Seriously, those who try and make it a racial/social/cultural issue is completely out to lunch. The moment we allow politicians to try and play what is happening in Toronto (Not just Dec 26) as any of those 'issues'...you immediately DETRACT from the fact that THOSE WHO SHOT THE GUNS DID SO BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.<br /> <br /> Unless you can PROVE to me that DEMONIC POSESSION is in play, I'm not going to deviate from my stance. Choice is choice. Those asswipes CHOSE to do a drive-by-shooting, and I'm not going to 'look at it in context' over any of the variables the Special Interest groups try and play it.<br /> <br /> *NOW BACK TO OUR REGULAR PROGRAMMING*<br /> <br /> <br /> *<br /> <br /> <br /> *<br /> <br /> <br /> *<br /> <br /> Hey Dr. Caleb, and also "Mein Kampf" should be taught as mandatory reading to all schools. We have to let the children know that Hitler wasn't a bad guy and he had a job to do.<br />

[Marcarc]

THat people are racist shouldn't surprise anyone, and of course there are posters here that make that clear. Every thing is about race in Canada-unless your white. If your white then Canada is the most egalitarian, human rights respecting nation in the world. The old 'work ethic' can solve all problems, and if there are problems it certainly wasn't the fault of 'society'. Although ironically these are usually the same people who blame society for everything THEY think is wrong with the country.<br /> <br /> Some people like to think they grew up on an island and thier environment and genetic disposition has nothing to do with anything. Fortunately, I don't think too many canadians are seriously going to say 'yes, let's make lawyers and judges use their free time to try criminals' as a way to combat violence. Anybody that thinks 'choice' makes a human different from an animal simply hasn't spent much time with animals. WE are animals, whether we have choice is irrelevant. <br /> <br /> So if our society shows that it couldn't give a rats ass about you, that violence is the only way to get things done, that property rights are sacrosanct (meaning territory to people who have no property) then of course violence is what you will resort to. <br /> <br /> If it was a gang shooting then 'collateral damage' or 'friendly fire' simply didn't enter into it-and why would it in a society where huge masses of people are nothing but collateral damage? You'll notice the thread on Dudley George where a peaceful demonstration resulted in a state sponsored execution, but nobody gives a flying ****. That's OUR society, if you step out of line we'll gun you down or stomp on you, so why are we surprised when others do the same? They have simply learned the lessons taught to them. If you live in Toronto this comes as no surprise, Toronto is pretty much a war zone and take a look at the coverage on this compared to innocent black people who have been killed by friendly fire. If you pay attention then you KNOW that its all about race.

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] THat people are racist shouldn't surprise anyone, and of course there are posters here that make that clear. Every thing is about race in Canada-unless your white. If your white then Canada is the most egalitarian, human rights respecting nation in the world. The old 'work ethic' can solve all problems, and if there are problems it certainly wasn't the fault of 'society'. Although ironically these are usually the same people who blame society for everything THEY think is wrong with the country.<br /> <br /> Some people like to think they grew up on an island and thier environment and genetic disposition has nothing to do with anything. Fortunately, I don't think too many canadians are seriously going to say 'yes, let's make lawyers and judges use their free time to try criminals' as a way to combat violence. Anybody that thinks 'choice' makes a human different from an animal simply hasn't spent much time with animals. WE are animals, whether we have choice is irrelevant. <br /> <br /> So if our society shows that it couldn't give a rats ass about you, that violence is the only way to get things done, that property rights are sacrosanct (meaning territory to people who have no property) then of course violence is what you will resort to. <br /> <br /> If it was a gang shooting then 'collateral damage' or 'friendly fire' simply didn't enter into it-and why would it in a society where huge masses of people are nothing but collateral damage? You'll notice the thread on Dudley George where a peaceful demonstration resulted in a state sponsored execution, but nobody gives a flying ****. That's OUR society, if you step out of line we'll gun you down or stomp on you, so why are we surprised when others do the same? They have simply learned the lessons taught to them. If you live in Toronto this comes as no surprise, Toronto is pretty much a war zone and take a look at the coverage on this compared to innocent black people who have been killed by friendly fire. If you pay attention then you KNOW that its all about race.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Again...WHAT'S YOUR POINT???<br /> <br /> The difference between the other killings and the Dec 26th shooting, was that it happened IN THE HEART OF THE CITY. <br /> <br /> When something happens in a downtown area to the public (Like a drive-by shooting!)...*everyone* takes notice.<br /> <br /> I think that racism is radically overstated in this country. Growing up, I was a 'victim' of racism myself. Sure, it wasn't fun being called every single ethnic slur (and some new invented ones)...but did I blame the racist for whatever failures I may of encountered? <br /> <br /> NEVER<br /> <br /> I found that money is money and it knows no colour. Nowadays, I work all the time with different races, and race never comes into issue. We're all too busy making money and bettering our lives to even BOTHER with such stupid issues.<br /> <br /> That's why I think it's such of a crock of sh!t whenever someone cites racism as what 'drove them to do it'.<br /> <br /> How about a nice 25+ year jail-sentence with a cellmate named 'Bubba' to hear your story?

[badsector]

Is it true that criminals are also victims? Sure it is. Most criminals are people who grew up in the wrong environment.<br /> <br /> So, the million dollar question is how society should treat criminals.<br /> 1. Approach them with "understanding" and try to make them nice. Brrrrrrrrrrrr! Wrong answer. They are not interested in that stuff. They don't care. They are not the type who give a damn.<br /> 2. Clean their sorry asses off the streets. This one works. It may sound harsh, but it is the way to do it. A mandatory 10 year sentence for using a gun to commit crime added to their sentences atomatically will remove them from the threat list for 10+ years. Repeat it a few hundred times and peace returns to good ol' T.O. It's simple. <br /> <br /> There are 2 roadblocks to success:<br /> 1. Lawyers who try to keep sentences light because THEY PROFIT FROM CRIME. <br /> 2. Idiots who buy the crap that the lawyers above are selling.

[Marcarc]

Racism is radically UNDERSTATED in this country. If there weren't violence in this predominantly black part of Toronto nobody would know anything about it. Just because some people are greedheads doesn't mean everybody is like that. To label 'criminals' as some deficient genotype is almost racist itself. Of course all the 'answers' to these problems come from people who have absolutely no experience with the legal system or anybody in it. Which is why they get scant attention unless something like this happens during an election. Violence happens for a reason, and the environment is number one, unless you are going to go back to blaming blacks cuz their more violent.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Racism is radically UNDERSTATED in this country. If there weren't violence in this predominantly black part of Toronto nobody would know anything about it.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You menat, overstated, right? Take for example the murder rate west of the Ontairo border. Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver's rates for 2004 were 3.9 to 4.8 murders for / 100k people. While Toronto's in 2004 (the year of record gun crimes) was a whopping 1.8 per 100k! <br /> <br /> Where were the Politicians last month when an 18 year old girl got her head blown off in Edmonton, coming home from her 18th birthday? If the murder rate in Voter rich Toronto was so bad, why is the rate in the West worse? You get the feeling there's an election coming?

[Marcarc]

I said RACISM is understated, meaning that it is rarely discussed, even when it is blatant, as regards natives, and even when the issue blows up, as it did in Oka-and then it is quickly and quietly forgotten. Much canadian violence occurs on reserves, and once again it is no coincidence that these are 'neighbourhoods' which are not only ignored by policy but are actively disenfranchised by federal policies. Again, we can pretend that natives and blacks are simply more prone to making violent decisions, or we can realize that something else is going on. The idea that a white person would make radically different choices than a minority, or that a native would make radically different choices when on a reserve than in a city, are all intertwined issues-ones that are never even discussed let alone validated. Nobody is saying that these are 'causes', any more than handing a loaded gun to an enraged person and egging them on is a cause of their subsequent actions-but they certainly are VERY highly mitigating circumstances. That's not a great analogy, because we KNOW that social policy affects the crime rate, for my money I'd far rather have policies that are proven to reduce the violence in the first place rather than simply 'clamping down' and locking people away once the violence is done. The main problem with that is the very obvious feature of rescidivism-criminals never PLAN on getting caught! Then there is what is obvious to me, that in a country with vast wealth and resources that people shouldn't be living in poverty ANYWAY. Why not 'do the right thing' and even have the chance of affecting violence, then if it still going on, THEN we can talk about locking everybody up.

[Rural]

Getting back to the real issue............<br /> <br /> "Ever been faced with a series of problems that you felt that life was hard on you? <br /> <br /> What did you do? Did you feel that it was enough to 'excuse' you taking a shotgun and killing someone?<br /> <br /> What is disturbing me here greatly, is that NONE of the politicians (Stephen Harper included) have ever bothered to utter that most important of word:<br /> <br /> >>>> CHOICE <br /> <br /> Without CHOICE, we are basically nothing more than ANIMALS. Without CHOICE, we cease to benefit from what seperates us as human beings from simply atoms floating around.<br /> <br /> The fact that NOBODY is bringing up the fact that ALL CRIMES ARE COMMITTED BY CHOICE."<br /> <br /> I whole heartedly agree, bringing in the race / poverty card insults all those parents and kids of all races that are in difficult situations, living in poverty, or in poor housing that strive and succeed in NOT turning to crime but struggle daily to be a good member of society dispite their situation. They CHOOSE to not commit crimes, they CHOOSE to bring up their children to know right from wrong the same as those across this country who CHOOSE to ignore societys rules and CHOOSE TO KILL.<br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

I don't see how that makes sense. I don't steal, yet I don't sit in judgment on somebody who does to feed their family, and I"m certainly not 'insulted' if somebody points out that the person stole because their family was hungry. Even if I was as poor as that person, which I was once, I wouldn't be 'insulted' if somebody maintains the above. Animals make choices all the time-we ARE animals. Dumbing it down to the point of saying 'he made a choice, end of story' is a way to simply not deal with issues. Fortunately, our legal system is advanced enough that such people aren't judges or lawyers. Every person is unique, every situation is unique, and every environment is unique. As was said in the newspaper, all of this was predicted at the beginning of Harris' 'common sense' revolution. All income supports were removed, rent ceilings were abolished, equal employment rights gone, training and educational supports, etc. If you turn an area into a ghetto, you can't be surprised when it ACTS like a ghetto.<br /> <br /> Of course this is all race related, we weren't having this conversation fifty times last year when it was black kids getting killed, and one poster above even said outright that he doesn't care if black people shoot one another so long as they stay in their neighbourhood.<br /> <br /> Again, you can deal with the rampant poverty, which is fortunately what the Mayor has brains enough to be talking about, or you can pretend your high, mighty and wonderful for not making bad choices. Believe me, nobody is saying whoever did this is simply going to walk away or not be punished. The argument for 'choice' simply means, 'throw this guy in jail then we're done with it'.

[Guest]

"Animals make choices all the time-we ARE animals."<br /> <br /> GREAT! Please point me to an ANIMAL that built a MICROPROCESSOR or built a hospital and I'LL SHUT UP.<br /> <br /> "Dumbing it down to the point of saying 'he made a choice, end of story'"<br /> <br /> That's "dumb" huh? So the concept of 'choice' is dumb to you. What then is your theory? Demonic posession? that it was DEMONS<br /> <br /> "Fortunately, our legal system is advanced enough that such people aren't judges or lawyers. Every person is unique, every situation is unique, and every environment is unique."<br /> <br /> Right, unique enough to allow criminals to be released back in the streets without serving ANY TIME, or to cut insanely CRIMINAL deals ala Homolka.<br /> <br /> Got it. <br /> <br /> "As was said in the newspaper, all of this was predicted at the beginning of Harris' 'common sense' revolution. All income supports were removed, rent ceilings were abolished, equal employment rights gone, training and educational supports, etc. If you turn an area into a ghetto, you can't be surprised when it ACTS like a ghetto."<br /> <br /> "Sorry officer...she was so HOT and SEXY...but the bitch IGNORED ME! I had no choice!<br /> You can call it 'rape', but I call it 'SOCIAL EXCLUSION'"<br /> <br /> Listen buddy...by your own 'logic', the Jews that survived the Holocaust Concentration camps should of all been the most hardened/psychotic/insanely violent criminals on the face of the earth. <br /> <br /> "Of course this is all race related"<br /> <br /> Is it because you're making it so? Like a stench-filled SMOKE-SCREEN? <br /> <br /> I like it how when someone doesn't have much of an argument, they ALWAYS PLAY A CARD, WHETHER IT'S RACISM/HOMOPHOBIA OR GENDER DISCRIMINATION.<br /> <br /> Are you saying that because that Creba girl was WHITE, she was being RACIST and thus got shot in a DRIVE BY SHOOTING?<br /> <br /> "Believe me, nobody is saying whoever did this is simply going to walk away or not be punished. The argument for 'choice' simply means, 'throw this guy in jail then we're done with it'."<br /> <br /> Addendum: KEEP THE SONOFABITCH IN JAIL.<br /> <br /> I seriously have no concern or care for criminal's 'rights', what about the victims? Not *ONCE* in your reply did you mention anything that preluded to this.<br /> <br /> Typical Liberals...always forgive the rapist and criticize the victim.<br /> <br /> Good for you.

[Marcarc]

Let's see YOU build a microprocessor. YOu can't do it, you haven't the faintest idea of how to do it. WHat does that have to do with choice? My cat can sleep downstairs or upstairs, she makes a choice-that's not rocket science, in fact it takes a lot of work to ignore what seems pretty obvious to me. That I can do some things different than animals goes without saying-THATS what dumbing it down means. <br /> <br /> Why its being dumbed down is because when people are talking about this they are talking about how to resolve the violence in inner Toronto. Nobody is talking about 'choice' because everybody KNOWS that people make choices, thats so obvious that it doesn't need to be said. It's like saying "what these politicians aren't saying is that 'people breathe air'!" What else do we do BUT make 'choices'. <br /> <br /> Whoever did this (we think) was caught, though its not known for sure who did it. All the politicians have been talking about extending sentences-that's done, end of story. The guy was caught, then he'll go to jail. As the above poster maintains, he doesn't care about criminals rights, that's fine, then don't partake in the discussion. Our legal system, and I as well, believes EVERYBODY has rights. For every Homolka, which is an issue of itself, there is a Donald Marshal or Steven Truscott who were equally a victim because not enough rights were granted them. <br /> <br /> As for victims rights, well, the idea that somehow inflicting violence on the perpetrators is what the victims family wants is to be totally disrespectful. There are many victims rights groups in the country, and they don't need YOU to tell them what they want. You've never laid eyes on them and probably never will. That you would use THEIR suffering to prop up your arguments is completely disrespectful. Victims desires differ with every victim, because everyone is unique. If people here KNEW anything about the justice system, and its clear from the retorts that they don't, they'd know that victim's rights are involved in parole hearings and sentencing. <br /> <br /> So the perpetrator when, and if, caught, will at least get 25 years to life. Again, this is partially up to the victims because a lot can change in 25 years. THis is what many object to, they in fact want to take the rights away from victims. That a person after 25 years can forgive another, have empathy for them, and in many cases even want to help them after their release is completely alien to these patriots of 'tough love'. They don't want that option to exist, they want to make damn sure that the person can NEVER get paroled no matter what, all because of their own selfish desires. In the current system, all these factors are weighed in, it is actually quite common in 'healing circles' for victims to actually join groups seeking to help those who wronged them. Of course this can't be tolerated by some people, EVERYBODY must share in the legal system which is in their own selfish heads. There can be no mitigating circumstances, no appeals to anything, no anything. THIS is completely disrespectful and is the reason such people are resigned to mouthing off on websites. If they actually got involved in society they'd discover things are so simplistic.<br /> <br /> The idiocy of somehow equating looking at circumstances with excusing the manslaughter need not be brought up here as most people here have a functioning intelligence. Somebody has died, the least we can do is try to make sure it doesn't happen again. <br /> <br /> That's why saying that it's not race related or about 'choice' is to completely ignore the environment. All the groups from Toronto have been saying the politicians should have been talking about this ten years ago-a little bit of financial investment and justice would have gone a long way. This is how you formulate policy, particularly when it happens in a disenfranchised area and disproportionately to one minority. With a country like canada, which is so overwhelmingly white, and all the african canadians live in one ghetto and are being killed and killing disproportionately, it seems almost absurd to maintain that 'this has nothing to do with race'. Again, if it had nothing to do with race and poverty then it would be going on all over. In Mississauga it's not happening, or Kingston, or Peterborough.<br />

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Let's see YOU build a microprocessor. YOu can't do it, you haven't the faintest idea of how to do it. WHat does that have to do with choice? My cat can sleep downstairs or upstairs, she makes a choice-that's not rocket science, in fact it takes a lot of work to ignore what seems pretty obvious to me. That I can do some things different than animals goes without saying-THATS what dumbing it down means. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Listen buddy.<br /> <br /> Animals operate on INSTINCT, not CHOICE.<br /> <br /> Humans have instinct, but we are BLESSED WITH REASON to thus have CHOICE.<br /> <br /> Animals KILL out of INSTINCT, because they've been bred that way...millions of years of evolution made animals learn to KILL.<br /> <br /> Same for human. Our ancestry has proven that "Only the Strong Survive"<br /> <br /> What then enables the COUNTLESS of instances when a HUMAN would SACRIFICE His or Her life to save their fellow man? Or to undergo depression/sadness upon the event of killing someone? Or More importantly: When a Human being CHOOSES NOT TO KILL?<br /> <br /> Animals don't have *any* of these instincts.<br /> <br /> As for Building a Microprocessor, If I can't build it, I sure as hell can contact Intel/AMD/IBM/Motorola and ask to see if someone *there* can help me build one.<br /> <br /> Can your cat call Gordon Moore?<br /> <br /> To summate:<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Let's see YOU build a microprocessor. YOu can't do it, you haven't the faintest idea of how to do it. WHat does that have to do with choice? My cat can sleep downstairs or upstairs, she makes a choice-that's not rocket science, in fact it takes a lot of work to ignore what seems pretty obvious to me. That I can do some things different than animals goes without saying-THATS what dumbing it down means. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> See how *stupid* your comments are? <br /> <br /> And yeah, it's not that hard nowadays to build a chip that can do basic/moderately complex stuff, it's becoming an industry much like how AUTOCAD used to be the stuff for only Gurus. <br /> <br /> Now even with Adobe Illustrator *ANYONE* Can design schematics! Christ, I did last year! It was simple! Design the blueprint in Illustrator, export it as an Auto-cad file and then E-MAIL it to the factory for prototyping and then manufacturing!<br /> <br /> PIECE OF CAKE!<br /> <br /> So *WHAT'S YOUR POINT*?<br /> <br /> Please show me how your "Cat" can do that.<br /> <br /> If I had to, I can make a phonecall and talk shop with a tech person over the best course of action.<br /> <br /> Your CAT CAN'T<br /> <br /> Just drop it alright?...on second hand...keep proving me right.<br /> <br /> Thanks.<br /> <br />