[Ed King]

Gaulois: I started a thread to discuss my above question in the Canadian politics section. Hope to see you there!

[Kory Yamashita]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] <br />Most of the people taking the pot shots will be doing so because they love their country and are concerned for its future, not out of resentment towards Quebec or its people. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Well said, Comrade. (I just read Orwell's Animal Farm... now I want to call everyone Comrade) <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Calumny] <br />I have noticed with the web that many speak to each other in a way I'm dubious would necessarily be the case if they were face to face. Anonymity seems to breed incivility in some. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Being from a small town, I feel that way about large cities too. A lot of our society's problems can be traced back to a lack of empathy. Doesn't the anonymity of the web/large cities add to the problem? <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Calumny] <br />There is obviously resentment, whether founded or not, on both sides. I tend to think that this is often misdirected, e.g., resentment on each side might better be directed towards Ottawa than each other, or based on misunderstandings and/or a lack of knowledge. <br /> <br />As you're aware, I believe it would be in the best long-term interest of all for Quebec to remain in Canada. You do not. I think it would be pointless for us to debate the issue endlessly and pick away at every statement made by the other because neither of us is likely to change our position and the end result wouldn't, to my mind, be productive or worthwhile for either. So, I'd rather just listen to what you have to say and present my own perspective when I feel it might be relevant. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Calumny, that's absolutely hilarious. I guess you foresaw the 24 pages of bickering that hasn't really changed anyone's mind. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Calumny] <br />Having not grown up in Quebec, I really can't understand the experiences that would lead one to the conclude that separation of the province from Canada is the only way to preserve its culture and values. Obviously, the life experiences of many have led to a conclusion that I don't understand, so I'm hoping to acquire more of an understanding through threads like this.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Ahhh, you're so diplomatic!! <br /> <br />Back to Quebec, though... if a majority of Quebeckers actually want to separate, I think it's something that Canada has to acknowledge and deal with. But right now that isn't the case, so until Quebeckers want to separate, wouldn't it be better to work WITH the rest of Canadians to try to address the issues at hand? <br /> <br />In other threads, we've discussed how many other minorities might feel threatened in similar ways to Quebec. And since Quebec can't separate right now anyways, they should be forging alliances with other alienated groups to try to build Canada into the country they want. <br /> <br />I can't help but think that the separatists could spend these interim years improving Canada. But if they did, then Canada would be more like the Quebec they envision, and that would hurt the cause of separation. Hard line separatists actually have a stake in keeping Canada from becoming the country they wish to live in.

[Guest]

<u>Kory: "Back to Quebec, though... if a majority of Quebeckers actually want to separate, I think it's something that Canada has to acknowledge and deal with. But right now that isn't the case, so until Quebeckers want to separate, wouldn't it be better to work WITH the rest of Canadians to try to address the issues at hand?</u> <br /><u>In other threads, we've discussed how many other minorities might feel threatened in similar ways to Quebec. And since Quebec can't separate right now anyways, they should be forging alliances with other alienated groups to try to build Canada into the country they want. </u> <br /><u>I can't help but think that the separatists could spend these interim years improving Canada. But if they did, then Canada would be more like the Quebec they envision, and that would hurt the cause of separation. Hard line separatists actually have a stake in keeping Canada from becoming the country they wish to live in.</u> " <br /> <br /> <br />Dear Kory, Quebeckers are beyond spending useless energy on how to work with Canadians to improve Canada. Quebeckers and Canadians have never been on the same wave lengths and will never be. As soon as Quebec does something for itself, like trying to improve its economy, Canada disagrees, all the while accusing us of "being poor". Doesn't matter if I sound like a broken record here, but Quebeckers are "damned if they do" and "damned if they don't". <br /> <br />So, we`re working on improving our society the way we see fit. Our economic success will start with rapatriating our taxes we send to Ottawa. <br /> <br />"Patapouf" Charest is a federalist; however Canada, after having begged him on all 4 to go to Quebec in 1998, isn't ready to let him do his job: <br /> <br />"Quebec move undermines Canada, critics say <br /> <br /> <br />By LES PERREAUX <br /> <br />Canadian Press <br /> <br />Quebec — As Premier Jean Charest prepares for a trip to Mexico with French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, at least one federalist insists the trip will weaken Canada and its image on the international stage. <br /> <br />Critics have blasted Ottawa for allowing Quebec to act as an ally of France in a foreign country when the five-day trade mission begins this coming Tuesday. <br /> <br />"I think this is a terrible precedent to be set, and one the government will live to regret," said Michael Behiels, an historian at the University of Ottawa. <br /> <br />"Once you allow this in the case of Quebec, there is no reason other premiers won't insist on the same privilege to travel abroad with political heads of state. It's rather foolish." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels, other academics and some pundits say the trip is part of Prime Minister Paul Martin's pattern of giving away power and weakening Canada. <br /> <br />They cite the recent health accord that gave special status to Quebec and point to suggestions the province could take part in international forums. <br /> <br />Mr. Charest shot back in a recent speech on the future of Canada, saying critics ignore the responsibilities of a provincial government. <br /> <br />"They speak with a total ignorance of the way our country works," he said. <br /> <br />In many areas like education and natural resources the provinces have much control over Canadian policy, Mr. Charest said. <br /> <br />"Yet, there are still people today in Canada who are surprised, who say ‘Oh gee, how could this happen? How could we let any province sit at this table and pretend to speak for the national interest?' It's an area where I have been frankly surprised by some commentators." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels said premiers should make foreign trips and meet foreign leaders. The problem is the added precedent of Quebec working with France abroad. Canada looks weak on the international stage, he said. <br /> <br />"This sort of thing is looked at by the rest of the world in a different light," he said. <br /> <br />"They do not see these nuances, they do not see fine print. They see a premier of a province of Canada travelling with the prime minister of another country." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels said Mr. artin has been guilty of "fuzzy thinking" on constitutional policy and the responsibilities of the federal government. <br /> <br />The federal and Quebec governments insist the Mexican trip is a simple trade mission like many conducted by premiers in the past. <br /> <br />Although Canada has helped arrange a meeting between Mr. Charest, Mexican President Vicente Fox and the Canadian ambassador to Mexico, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew said Ottawa had no control over Mr. Charest's plans with Mr. Raffarin. <br /> <br />"There seems to be an understanding that we need to allow a trip," said Sebastien Theberge. "That's not true. We facilitate requests made through protocol, that's what we do." <br /> <br />However, the federal government once vetoed the international ambitions of another Quebec premier when former prime minister Jean Chrétien blocked a 1999 meeting between Lucien Bouchard and ex-Mexican president Ernesto Zedillo. <br /> <br />Mr. Theberge said federal policy has since changed. <br /> <br />Political scientist Gerald Baier said it's impossible to ignore the symbolism of the trade mission because of the history of French relations with Quebec and Canada. <br /> <br />Ever since French President Charles de Gaulle declared "Vive le Québec libre" from the balcony of Montreal city hall in 1967, critics search for any hint that France is fostering the Quebec independence movement. <br /> <br />"With the Gaullist influence on Canada-Quebec relations, the French government has quietly supported sovereignty in subtle, and in de Gaulle's case, not so subtle ways," said Prof. Baier, a professor at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. <br /> <br />"It's really easy to say, ‘it's a trade visit' but there is a symbolic element to the visit. The Alberta premier doesn't go with the British prime minister on trade missions. There is no real parallel out there." <br /> <br />Meanwhile, Mr. Charest's government says the trip to Mexico may only be the first foreign junket where Quebec and France team up. <br /> <br />The Quebec government wants Mr. Charest and Mr. Raffarin to make a similar trip to a European country. <br /> <br />"The idea shared by Mr. Raffarin and Mr. Charest is that Quebec could help France with an open door" to North America, said Quebec International Affairs Minister Monique Gagnon-Tremblay. <br /> <br />"Then Quebec could go to a European country accompanied by France. That was the original intent and we think it could be good for business." <br /> <br />ENOUGH OF THIS. QUEBEC ISN'T A CHILD THAT NEEDS DADDY'S APPROVAL EVERYTIME IT WANTS TO MAKE A DECISION. <br /> <br />

[michou]

self censored

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] <u>Kory: "Back to Quebec, though... if a majority of Quebeckers actually want to separate, I think it's something that Canada has to acknowledge and deal with. But right now that isn't the case, so until Quebeckers want to separate, wouldn't it be better to work WITH the rest of Canadians to try to address the issues at hand?</u> <br /><u>In other threads, we've discussed how many other minorities might feel threatened in similar ways to Quebec. And since Quebec can't separate right now anyways, they should be forging alliances with other alienated groups to try to build Canada into the country they want. </u> <br /><u>I can't help but think that the separatists could spend these interim years improving Canada. But if they did, then Canada would be more like the Quebec they envision, and that would hurt the cause of separation. Hard line separatists actually have a stake in keeping Canada from becoming the country they wish to live in.</u> " <br /> <br /> <br />Dear Kory, Quebeckers are beyond spending useless energy on how to work with Canadians to improve Canada. Quebeckers and Canadians have never been on the same wave lengths and will never be. As soon as Quebec does something for itself, like trying to improve its economy, Canada disagrees, all the while accusing us of "being poor". Doesn't matter if I sound like a broken record here, but Quebeckers are "damned if they do" and "damned if they don't". <br /> <br />So, we`re working on improving our society the way we see fit. Our economic success will start with rapatriating our taxes we send to Ottawa. <br /> <br />"Patapouf" Charest is a federalist; however Canada, after having begged him on all 4 to go to Quebec in 1998, isn't ready to let him do his job: <br /> <br />"Quebec move undermines Canada, critics say <br /> <br /> <br />By LES PERREAUX <br /> <br />Canadian Press <br /> <br />Quebec — As Premier Jean Charest prepares for a trip to Mexico with French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, at least one federalist insists the trip will weaken Canada and its image on the international stage. <br /> <br />Critics have blasted Ottawa for allowing Quebec to act as an ally of France in a foreign country when the five-day trade mission begins this coming Tuesday. <br /> <br />"I think this is a terrible precedent to be set, and one the government will live to regret," said Michael Behiels, an historian at the University of Ottawa. <br /> <br />"Once you allow this in the case of Quebec, there is no reason other premiers won't insist on the same privilege to travel abroad with political heads of state. It's rather foolish." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels, other academics and some pundits say the trip is part of Prime Minister Paul Martin's pattern of giving away power and weakening Canada. <br /> <br />They cite the recent health accord that gave special status to Quebec and point to suggestions the province could take part in international forums. <br /> <br />Mr. Charest shot back in a recent speech on the future of Canada, saying critics ignore the responsibilities of a provincial government. <br /> <br />"They speak with a total ignorance of the way our country works," he said. <br /> <br />In many areas like education and natural resources the provinces have much control over Canadian policy, Mr. Charest said. <br /> <br />"Yet, there are still people today in Canada who are surprised, who say ‘Oh gee, how could this happen? How could we let any province sit at this table and pretend to speak for the national interest?' It's an area where I have been frankly surprised by some commentators." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels said premiers should make foreign trips and meet foreign leaders. The problem is the added precedent of Quebec working with France abroad. Canada looks weak on the international stage, he said. <br /> <br />"This sort of thing is looked at by the rest of the world in a different light," he said. <br /> <br />"They do not see these nuances, they do not see fine print. They see a premier of a province of Canada travelling with the prime minister of another country." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels said Mr. artin has been guilty of "fuzzy thinking" on constitutional policy and the responsibilities of the federal government. <br /> <br />The federal and Quebec governments insist the Mexican trip is a simple trade mission like many conducted by premiers in the past. <br /> <br />Although Canada has helped arrange a meeting between Mr. Charest, Mexican President Vicente Fox and the Canadian ambassador to Mexico, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew said Ottawa had no control over Mr. Charest's plans with Mr. Raffarin. <br /> <br />"There seems to be an understanding that we need to allow a trip," said Sebastien Theberge. "That's not true. We facilitate requests made through protocol, that's what we do." <br /> <br />However, the federal government once vetoed the international ambitions of another Quebec premier when former prime minister Jean Chrétien blocked a 1999 meeting between Lucien Bouchard and ex-Mexican president Ernesto Zedillo. <br /> <br />Mr. Theberge said federal policy has since changed. <br /> <br />Political scientist Gerald Baier said it's impossible to ignore the symbolism of the trade mission because of the history of French relations with Quebec and Canada. <br /> <br />Ever since French President Charles de Gaulle declared "Vive le Québec libre" from the balcony of Montreal city hall in 1967, critics search for any hint that France is fostering the Quebec independence movement. <br /> <br />"With the Gaullist influence on Canada-Quebec relations, the French government has quietly supported sovereignty in subtle, and in de Gaulle's case, not so subtle ways," said Prof. Baier, a professor at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. <br /> <br />"It's really easy to say, ‘it's a trade visit' but there is a symbolic element to the visit. The Alberta premier doesn't go with the British prime minister on trade missions. There is no real parallel out there." <br /> <br />Meanwhile, Mr. Charest's government says the trip to Mexico may only be the first foreign junket where Quebec and France team up. <br /> <br />The Quebec government wants Mr. Charest and Mr. Raffarin to make a similar trip to a European country. <br /> <br />"The idea shared by Mr. Raffarin and Mr. Charest is that Quebec could help France with an open door" to North America, said Quebec International Affairs Minister Monique Gagnon-Tremblay. <br /> <br />"Then Quebec could go to a European country accompanied by France. That was the original intent and we think it could be good for business." <br /> <br />ENOUGH OF THIS. QUEBEC ISN'T A CHILD THAT NEEDS DADDY'S APPROVAL EVERYTIME IT WANTS TO MAKE A DECISION. <br /> <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />The final say is always with the federal government, whenever it wants to intervene.

[Kory Yamashita]

Yeah, funny how the media managed to find two ROC university profs and none from Quebec. <br /> <br />Besides, Martin IS letting Charest go to Mexico with French PM Jean-Pierre Raffarin, so what is your problem with this? In my eyes, Martin should go along as well to give more credibility, but lets just say my expectations for him aren't that high. <br /> <br />And the entire article is biased anyways. Doesn't Gordon Campbell's Softwood Lumber trips to Washington count as provinces engaging in foreign trade? Or did this Perreaux fellow forget that the USA is a foreign country? <br /> <br />I won't bother to pick the article apart point by point, because it's pretty much a piece of garbage in its entirety. <br /> <br />Delenda, listen... we both know there are large elements of english media in Canada that aim to foster separatist sentiment. This is a clear example of it. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] <br />Quebeckers are beyond spending useless energy on how to work with Canadians to improve Canada. Quebeckers and Canadians have never been on the same wave lengths and will never be. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />When I said Quebeckers should work with Canadians to improve Canada, I mean that they should work together to improve ALL of Canada, including Quebec. And Quebeckers and other Canadians aren't on the same wave lengths? Well.. <br /> <br /> <br />What's your opinion of Universal Health Care? <br /> <br />Mine is that it should be free and affordable to everyone. And service should be such that no one should be denied a second opinion if they desire it. <br /> <br /> <br />What's your opinion on a government-subsidized Child Care program? <br /> <br />Personally, I think that it would be great for our economy. The Child Care program that I believe was just cut in Quebec is as valuable to Quebec as Universal Health Care is to all of Canada. I think we should create a national Child Care program, in the image of the Quebec model (before the program was axed). <br /> <br /> <br />What do you think of ethnic/cultural minorities? <br /> <br />I believe everyone is equal. Every culture/race/religion, etc should be treated with absolute respect. And where demographics support it, services should be provided in whatever languages are necessary. <br /> <br /> <br />What do you think of the Missile Defense program? <br /> <br />My view: one big piece of stinking, offensive garbage. <br /> <br /> <br />Delenda, I don't know if you agree with all my views above. I rather doubt that you do. Everyone disagrees to some degree. But you must agree with SOME of them. <br /> <br />MY point is that in 1995, a majority of people who voted said "no" to separation. Until Quebec votes in favour of separation, think about this: no matter how many times you tell me Quebeckers and ROCanadians are on separate wavelengths, I will continue to look at your province and see it as a beacon of hope, despite its gloomy demeanor. There are a lot of Canadians like me who realize that the separatist movement isn't dead, but it is stalled at the moment. And in the meantime, we would welcome the help of Quebeckers to achieve certain common goals. <br /> <br />A lot of what you are angry at is how the federal government treats you. I am angry at how the federal government treats me too. And same with my provincial government. Rather than asking to declare my house a separate province (hey, my family was here before BC was a part of Canada), I choose to work within the system to try to better it. <br /> <br />I know Quebeckers feel they have suffered at the hands of the ROC. My family, too, has suffered. We were imprisoned in concentration ("internment") camps during the second world war, accused as being spies. My grandfather, who was born and raised in Canada, had his sole valuable possession stolen by the federal government - his commercial fishing boat. They also stripped him of his citizenship. Then they put a target on his back and shipped him out to a fenced off camp in Ontario. <br /> <br />My point is that we all suffered. Every culture in Canada has been oppressed in some way. And yet we've overcome our differences to build a great nation. <br /> <br />Quebec's 1/4 of parliament could be a huge force in determining the direction of this country, if Quebec separatists didn't have a strangle-hold on the socialist movement in Quebec. Imagine Quebec's 25% working with the NDP's 17% of the popular vote to get a national Child Care program... or to fix Health Care... why that's practically half the country right there. <br /> <br />Right now you are stuck in Canada. So until you are able to separate, why not make life better by working with people who share your views and your aspirations? Why not cooperate to the benefit of our entire country? <br /> <br />Hope that wasn't too offensive... I'm just bitter that the majority of Canadians (incl liberals who don't realize that the Liberals aren't so liberal) who share my views can't seem to work together to achieve our goals.

[Guest]

[QUOTE]Besides, Martin IS letting Charest go to Mexico with French PM Jean-Pierre Raffarin, so what is your problem with this? [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Wow! Oh, thank you daddy! Why is it that every move that Quebec makes is so closely scrutinized and criticized by the ROC? If Manitoba, PEI or whomever want to embark on a foreign mission, you won`t find many criticisms from Quebec. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]it's pretty much a piece of garbage in its entirety. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />but it comes from the prestigious Globe&Mail! <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Delenda, listen... we both know there are large elements of english media in Canada that aim to foster separatist sentiment. This is a clear example of it.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Kory, I don't call it large. I call it exclusive. English media is EXCLUSIVELY fostering separatist sentiment. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]When I said Quebeckers should work with Canadians to improve Canada, I mean that they should work together to improve ALL of Canada, including Quebec.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I have addressed this before. Improving Quebec for Quebeckers is to be done inside Quebec. Anything done outside Quebec to improve Quebec will not improve Quebec. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What's your opinion of Universal Health Care? <br /> <br />Mine is that it should be free and affordable to everyone. And service should be such that no one should be denied a second opinion if they desire it.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Same opinion. But having the same opinion doesn't mean we have to be in the same country. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What's your opinion on a government-subsidized Child Care program? <br /> <br />Personally, I think that it would be great for our economy. The Child Care program that I believe was just cut in Quebec is as valuable to Quebec as Universal Health Care is to all of Canada. I think we should create a national Child Care program, in the image of the Quebec model (before the program was axed).[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />What prevents you from implementing the same thing in Canada? <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What do you think of ethnic/cultural minorities? <br /> <br />I believe everyone is equal. Every culture/race/religion, etc should be treated with absolute respect. And where demographics support it, services should be provided in whatever languages are necessary. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I fully support cultural minorities in Quebec. We want them on our side and Bill 101 was put into effect for that purpose. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What do you think of the Missile Defense program?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I am energetically opposed to it and so are an overwhelming majority of Quebeckers. When Quebec leaves, Canada will be left with probably a majority of supporters. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]MY point is that in 1995, a majority of people who voted said "no" to separation. Until Quebec votes in favour of separation, think about this: no matter how many times you tell me Quebeckers and ROCanadians are on separate wavelengths, I will continue to look at your province and see it as a beacon of hope, despite its gloomy demeanor. There are a lot of Canadians like me who realize that the separatist movement isn't dead, but it is stalled at the moment. And in the meantime, we would welcome the help of Quebeckers to achieve certain common goals.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Glad to see that you view Quebec as your role model. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]I choose to work within the system to try to better it. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />We have tried that for hundreds of years. Eventually, one gets the message. WE ARE NOT WANTED IN CANADA. That flag fiasco is jsut the latest proof. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Imagine Quebec's 25% working with the NDP's 17% of the popular vote to get a national Child Care program... or to fix Health Care... why that's practically half the country right there.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />With English Canada's continued success at screwing Quebec, Duceppe will take a back seat to Layton, and English Canada`s needs will come before ours. <br /> <br />

[Dino]

It would be nice to have people who vote for the bloc to vote ndp but to have the ndp working with a seperatist party would be like playing with fire. Brian Mulroney tried it and it failed miserably. When I listen to Mr. Duceppe and his deputy person i can't remember her name all they seem to say is "Well the meech and charlotte accord failed so Canada doesn't work. <br /> <br />To me that's the stupidest thing. First of all the Meech and Charlotte wouldn't even have recognized the aboriginals as a founding nation and Brian Mulroney's attempts to get Quebec into the constitution were to give Quebec want they want without talking to the rest of the country on how they feel about it. <br /> <br />I've been on these quebec seperatist websites and when ever people complain about Quebec in the roc it's Quebec bashing well on those websites when they talk about Canada it's extreme Canada bashing. To me there is a difference between Quebec and the ROC because quebecers keep viewing ROC like there's only people of english origin living here and that all this fighting if between the english and the french. What I'm trying to say is that in Quebec it's as though they can't move on while in the ROC that's be done alon time ago.Not many people want to acknowledge Quebec as a distinct society because people view it as a province that wants to be just alittle bit better then the rest of canada. The way Quebecers have turned the Canadian flag into is if you speak english the Canadian flag is for you and if you speak french the Quebec flag is for you. If people in Quebec can't seem to understand why people in Canada won't give them distinct society then people in Quebec should ask themselves if Quebec were to become a nation would you give the english population distinct society in your Quebec constitution? <br /> <br />There was this one website that questioned how the federal governement can bring in a constitution to Canada without the consent of Quebec which is 25% of the Canadian population. That person obviously doesn't know his history because when Pierre Trudeau brought the constitution back to Canada the MAJORITY of Quebecers supported it and 70 out 74 liberal mp's from Quebec supported it. Do you know how many MP's from Manitoba to B.C. were liberal? ZERO. Yet western canada doesn't view the constitution as a sham because.All we had for western representation was two NDP people from saskatchewan roy romanow who one and another person. Renee Levesque even promised Canada in novemeber of 1981 that he would sign the constitution constitutionally recognizing Quebec as a province but he soon backed out. <br /> <br />The majority of quebecers supported entering the constitution,70 out of 74 supported and even renee levesque but then he backed out and because of this we still have seperatists striving for that ultimate goal. Instead of Quebecers thinking that Canada doesn't work why don't they try helping to elect a different government instead of being like Brian Mulroney tried it didn't work so Canada doesn't work. It's stupid logic because every political party would have a different approach.

[Dino]

Delenda, if you weren't wanted in Canada people would say it. I'm so sick and tired of people like you who want the rest of Canada to have some sort of pitty for you. You say that if Quebec leaves that the rest of Canada will probably support missile defense. That's wrong. Did it ever occur to you that the Liberals aren't telling anyone the truth so when people are being actually polled they don't even know how to answer and then there kind of like well...i guess i support it. They don't even have information to make an informed decision. When there was the iraq war ontario was 70% against it and Quebec was 80% against it and Duceppe was like " Look! we are different!" Well Delenda if you look at the united states and you compare new your state to texas. New york is more progressive then texas but that doesn't mean that one is less american then the other. Same goes for Canada just because it wasn't 70% in ontario and 80% in quebec doesn't mean anything. <br /> <br />You say the english media is exculsively fostering seperatist sentiment. And the Quebec media is not playing a part in gunning for seperation? <br /> <br />You say that english Canada's needs will come first before french Canada's if Jack Layton were in power. Well the majority of Canadians don't view Canada as some french and english country. I can't see people in french Canada disagreeing with a national child care program, lower tuition fees, better environment, independent foreign policy,a smaller gap between the rich and poor and keeping health care universal. <br /> <br />Delenda instead of thinking that the ROC views Quebec as second class citizens maybe you should actually take a step outside of Quebec and go to the rest of Canada and see if people really do view Quebecers as second class citizens. You'll be very suprised to find that Canadians aren't a bunch of racists towards the french population. <br /> <br />And one other thing if manitoba pei want to go on a foreign trip and you say there wouldn't be any critisim from Quebec probably because hmmmmmm they don't view themselves as more than a province.

[Guest]

[QUOTE]It would be nice to have people who vote for the bloc to vote ndp but to have the ndp working with a seperatist party would be like playing with fire. Brian Mulroney tried it and it failed miserably. When I listen to Mr. Duceppe and his deputy person i can't remember her name all they seem to say is "Well the meech and charlotte accord failed so Canada doesn't work. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />You just prove my point. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]To me that's the stupidest thing. First of all the Meech and Charlotte wouldn't even have recognized the aboriginals as a founding nation and Brian Mulroney's attempts to get Quebec into the constitution were to give Quebec want they want without talking to the rest of the country on how they feel about it.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Canada doesn't care about aboriginals. Aboriginal were not even mentioned in the Meech Lake Accord. Our 5 basic demands were not met. We don't have to have anybody's permission to decide for our identity. Whether the rest of the country feels good, bad, upset, etc. about this is irrelevant. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]I've been on these quebec seperatist websites and when ever people complain about Quebec in the roc it's Quebec bashing well on those websites when they talk about Canada it's extreme Canada bashing.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />What websites are you talking about? If telling things as they are is Extreme Canada Bashing, then extreme Canada bashing is justified. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Not many people want to acknowledge Quebec as a distinct society because people view it as a province that wants to be just alittle bit better then the rest of canada.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />You're absolutely right. Irreconciliable difference. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]...people in Quebec should ask themselves if Quebec were to become a nation would you give the english population distinct society in your Quebec constitution?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I doubt there will be a lot of English-speaking people in Quebec after it becomes sovereign. However, should they ask for a special status, I don't see why Quebec should refuse it. That won't take away anything from us and if it can make them happy, then why not? Too bad Canada can't do it for Quebec, hey? <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]That person obviously doesn't know his history because when Pierre Trudeau brought the constitution back to Canada the MAJORITY of Quebecers supported it and 70 out 74 liberal mp's from Quebec supported it. [/QUOTE] <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br />Dino is mixed up here. The Constitution was rapatriated in late 1981-1982. The federal elections right after that saw Mulroney win a majority of seats in Quebec. Mulroney was elected in Quebec on the promises to bring back Quebec into the Constitution. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]The majority of quebecers supported entering the constitution,70 out of 74 supported and even renee levesque but then he backed out and because of this we still have seperatists striving for that ultimate goal. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I don't know if you took the above from a website, but they are either wrong, or your French isn't good enough to follow properly the conversation. <br /> <br />

[Guest]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= Delenda Carthago] [QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita]"Back to Quebec, though... if a majority of Quebeckers actually want to separate, I think it's something that Canada has to acknowledge and deal with. But right now that isn't the case, so until Quebeckers want to separate, wouldn't it be better to work WITH the rest of Canadians to try to address the issues at hand?</u> <br /><u>In other threads, we've discussed how many other minorities might feel threatened in similar ways to Quebec. And since Quebec can't separate right now anyways, they should be forging alliances with other alienated groups to try to build Canada into the country they want. </u> <br /><u>I can't help but think that the separatists could spend these interim years improving Canada. But if they did, then Canada would be more like the Quebec they envision, and that would hurt the cause of separation. Hard line separatists actually have a stake in keeping Canada from becoming the country they wish to live in.</u> " <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Dear Kory, Quebeckers are beyond spending useless energy on how to work with Canadians to improve Canada. Quebeckers and Canadians have never been on the same wave lengths and will never be. As soon as Quebec does something for itself, like trying to improve its economy, Canada disagrees, all the while accusing us of "being poor". Doesn't matter if I sound like a broken record here, but Quebeckers are "damned if they do" and "damned if they don't". <br /> <br />So, we`re working on improving our society the way we see fit. Our economic success will start with rapatriating our taxes we send to Ottawa. <br /> <br />"Patapouf" Charest is a federalist; however Canada, after having begged him on all 4 to go to Quebec in 1998, isn't ready to let him do his job: <br /> <br />"Quebec move undermines Canada, critics say <br /> <br /> <br />By LES PERREAUX <br /> <br />Canadian Press <br /> <br />Quebec — As Premier Jean Charest prepares for a trip to Mexico with French Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, at least one federalist insists the trip will weaken Canada and its image on the international stage. <br /> <br />Critics have blasted Ottawa for allowing Quebec to act as an ally of France in a foreign country when the five-day trade mission begins this coming Tuesday. <br /> <br />"I think this is a terrible precedent to be set, and one the government will live to regret," said Michael Behiels, an historian at the University of Ottawa. <br /> <br />"Once you allow this in the case of Quebec, there is no reason other premiers won't insist on the same privilege to travel abroad with political heads of state. It's rather foolish." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels, other academics and some pundits say the trip is part of Prime Minister Paul Martin's pattern of giving away power and weakening Canada. <br /> <br />They cite the recent health accord that gave special status to Quebec and point to suggestions the province could take part in international forums. <br /> <br />Mr. Charest shot back in a recent speech on the future of Canada, saying critics ignore the responsibilities of a provincial government. <br /> <br />"They speak with a total ignorance of the way our country works," he said. <br /> <br />In many areas like education and natural resources the provinces have much control over Canadian policy, Mr. Charest said. <br /> <br />"Yet, there are still people today in Canada who are surprised, who say ‘Oh gee, how could this happen? How could we let any province sit at this table and pretend to speak for the national interest?' It's an area where I have been frankly surprised by some commentators." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels said premiers should make foreign trips and meet foreign leaders. The problem is the added precedent of Quebec working with France abroad. Canada looks weak on the international stage, he said. <br /> <br />"This sort of thing is looked at by the rest of the world in a different light," he said. <br /> <br />"They do not see these nuances, they do not see fine print. They see a premier of a province of Canada travelling with the prime minister of another country." <br /> <br />Prof. Behiels said Mr. artin has been guilty of "fuzzy thinking" on constitutional policy and the responsibilities of the federal government. <br /> <br />The federal and Quebec governments insist the Mexican trip is a simple trade mission like many conducted by premiers in the past. <br /> <br />Although Canada has helped arrange a meeting between Mr. Charest, Mexican President Vicente Fox and the Canadian ambassador to Mexico, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew said Ottawa had no control over Mr. Charest's plans with Mr. Raffarin. <br /> <br />"There seems to be an understanding that we need to allow a trip," said Sebastien Theberge. "That's not true. We facilitate requests made through protocol, that's what we do." <br /> <br />However, the federal government once vetoed the international ambitions of another Quebec premier when former prime minister Jean Chrétien blocked a 1999 meeting between Lucien Bouchard and ex-Mexican president Ernesto Zedillo. <br /> <br />Mr. Theberge said federal policy has since changed. <br /> <br />Political scientist Gerald Baier said it's impossible to ignore the symbolism of the trade mission because of the history of French relations with Quebec and Canada. <br /> <br />Ever since French President Charles de Gaulle declared "Vive le Québec libre" from the balcony of Montreal city hall in 1967, critics search for any hint that France is fostering the Quebec independence movement. <br /> <br />"With the Gaullist influence on Canada-Quebec relations, the French government has quietly supported sovereignty in subtle, and in de Gaulle's case, not so subtle ways," said Prof. Baier, a professor at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. <br /> <br />"It's really easy to say, ‘it's a trade visit' but there is a symbolic element to the visit. The Alberta premier doesn't go with the British prime minister on trade missions. There is no real parallel out there." <br /> <br />Meanwhile, Mr. Charest's government says the trip to Mexico may only be the first foreign junket where Quebec and France team up. <br /> <br />The Quebec government wants Mr. Charest and Mr. Raffarin to make a similar trip to a European country. <br /> <br />"The idea shared by Mr. Raffarin and Mr. Charest is that Quebec could help France with an open door" to North America, said Quebec International Affairs Minister Monique Gagnon-Tremblay. <br /> <br />"Then Quebec could go to a European country accompanied by France. That was the original intent and we think it could be good for business." <br /> <br />ENOUGH OF THIS. QUEBEC ISN'T A CHILD THAT NEEDS DADDY'S APPROVAL EVERYTIME IT WANTS TO MAKE A DECISION. <br /> <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br /><u>The final say is always with the federal government, whenever it wants to intervene.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />That is what we're working on correcting, Perturbed. <br />

[Macdonald/Borden]

I'm not the biggest Mulroney fan mainly out of my anger at his neo liberal, free trading policies. But I still repsect what he tried to do at least in undoing Pierre's constitutional damage. First of all the Charter does not even include our fundamental Canadian private property rights included in Diefenbaker's Bill of Rights, also Trudeau did not take Quebec's demands for distinct cultural status, the Aboriginal nations demands for limited self government and the west's demands for an elected and equal Senate (even it's power were reduced) seriously. <br /> <br />These demands are all legitimate, and just because Mulroney was a liar and a failure does not make our differences "irreconcilable", quite the opposite. Yugoslavia, the USSR, Czechoslovakia and maybe someday the United Kingdom were all forced unions that would one day have to unravell, Canada is nothing like any of those nations. <br /> <br />Yes you can try and hold another referendum, use a trick question because you have never had the guts to ask Quebecois Canadians to decide on you're real intentions, intimidate voters, lie, use bigoted ethnic nationalism to turn one ethnic community against another and pervert Canadian history to make French Canadians appear to be more oppressed than the Africans, Jews, Gypsies, Irish and Kurds combined, even though Canada BY FAR is the most succesful partnership between two tribes! But you will lose, just as in 1980, just as in 1995. Because, French-Canadian common sense and patriotism towards our nation (Canada) will prevail over the politics of confusion, hate, fear mongering and isolation! <br /> <br />MOVE TO FRANCE, though if you did I know you would be just as hypocritical as you are here in Canada and you would probably oppose any language rights or self government for the Breton, Basque and Corsican nations. Yeah when exactly was Quebec an "independent nation state" again, I can't remember the exact time line? Oh yeah, thats right Quebec never has been (and never will be <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> ). <br /> <br />Yeah you can try and "prove" all you like that Quebec was forced into Confederation but anyone with a brain and a knowlegde of history knows that that is horse hockey! It was negotiated and created by an equal coalition of elected politicians from ALL of the former colonies, end of story. The province of Canada was forcefully united by the Brits in 1848, but when Ontario joined Confederation, Quebec did not have to join and could have become independent, Quebec did because the Quebecois people saw a bright and successful future in Canada and they were right! <br /> <br />Man, it felt great to unload against the seperatists, this thread was a great idea! You would be amazed how many "hardened" Quebec nationalists would become fervent federalists if Quebec's needs were met in our constitution as I am sure they will be some day. The Bloc and PQ would both peter out over night! And I would laugh and drink beer to celebrate, while singing Oh Canada, en francais!

[Guest]

[QUOTE][QUOTE BY= dino] Delenda, if you weren't wanted in Canada people would say it. I'm so sick and tired of people like you who want the rest of Canada to have some sort of pitty for you. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />We don't want any pity. We're facing the reality that we're not wanted and we're working on finding a way out. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]You say that if Quebec leaves that the rest of Canada will probably support missile defense. That's wrong. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Maybe it's wrong. But don't forget you have 99 Conservative MPs that agree with it and some liberals too. If Quebec goes, my guess is that the missile defense will go through. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]You say the english media is exculsively fostering seperatist sentiment. And the Quebec media is not playing a part in gunning for seperation?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />No, the Quebec media is not pushing separation, because the Quebec media is bought by federalists. Paul "power corporation" Desmarais has the major newspapers under his tutelage. La Presse, Le Droit, Le Soleil, La tribune, you name it, are pure federalist propaganda. Le Devoir is considered sovereigntist, albeit intellectual. Radio-Canada, under Rabinovitch tutelage, is forbidden to even pronounce the word "Quebec". Again, it is pure federalist propaganda that aims to destroy our very identity. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]You say that english Canada's needs will come first before french Canada's if Jack Layton were in power. Well the majority of Canadians don't view Canada as some french and english country. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I agree with you. The majority of Canadians view Canada as being English-speaking. French doesn't count. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]I can't see people in french Canada disagreeing with a national child care program, lower tuition fees, better environment, independent foreign policy,a smaller gap between the rich and poor and keeping health care universal. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />These are all programs implemented by the PQ. If you want to implemented in Canada, go ahead. <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Delenda instead of thinking that the ROC views Quebec as second class citizens maybe you should actually take a step outside of Quebec and go to the rest of Canada and see if people really do view Quebecers as second class citizens. You'll be very suprised to find that Canadians aren't a bunch of racists towards the french population.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Perhaps this is the case, on an individual basis, but the federal government sure doesn't see it that way. It wants, in the long run, to erase our identity. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]if manitoba pei want to go on a foreign trip and you say there wouldn't be any critisim from Quebec probably because hmmmmmm they don't view themselves as more than a province.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] <br /> <br />But Charest doesn't view Quebec as a province! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Guest]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]if manitoba pei want to go on a foreign trip and you say there wouldn't be any critisim from Quebec probably because hmmmmmm they don't view themselves as more than a province.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />But Charest doesn't view Quebec as a province! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Sorry, this should have read : Charest doesn't view Quebec as more than a province!

[Dino]

Delenda universal health care did not originate in Quebec it was Saskatchewan. You should learn you history you say that the majority of Quebecers didn't support entering the constitution and that 70 out of 74 MP's didn't support it either, is wrong. <br /> <br />Try learning your history. It was never Mr. Trudeaus fault that Quebec not enter the constitution. Renee Levesque went against the majority of quebeckers and Brian Mulroney came into power promising to do what Trudeau couldn't;bring Quebec into the constitution. Delenda if you actually look at history the only thing that prevented Quebec from being in it was not Mr. Trudeau's position but Renee Leveque refusing to ratify it. <br /> <br />Delenda you say the federal government wants to erase your indentity the last 4 elected prime ministers have been from Quebec why on earth would they attempt to "erase" your identity. Sorry but that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. If they wanted to get rid of the french language Trudeau would never have put in bilingualism. <br /> <br />You say why doesn't Canada just give Quebec distinct society if it will make them happy? Maybe because it will make Canada have two voices in this country which people would be against. Quebec will become more than a province if we start dishing out distinct society. <br /> <br />And no. Canadians don't view Canada as simply an english speaking country. <br /> <br />Last but not least Delenda you need to learn your history about the constitution because what I've written is the truth the majority of Quebecers in 1982 wanted in the constitution and 70 Quebec MP's supported it. You say that because you weren't put in the constitution that is why so many people in Quebec voted for Mulroney because he campaigned on bringing Quebec in.Maybe that should remind everyone in the ROC that people in Quebec are truly federalists at heart.