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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:26 pm
 


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:00 pm
 


<br />



If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can not anticipate our future actions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:04 pm
 


Good points Canuck. Nice to see another point of view.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:22 pm
 


Something went wrong with my rebuttal so here it is again: <br /> <br />[quote]I'd said I wouldn't respond but I just want to point out no arguments have been brought forth from Canuck. [/quote] <br /> <br />Concerning my arguments, it's not that I didn't make any... you just didn't answer them in preference for grasping at straws and making broad assumptions resulting in you, stating the obvious, (that French-Canadian culture, like any other, is unique) in a weak attempt to prove that Quebec society has evolved into such a radical form that the Canadian public is rendered incapable to recognise it. <br /> <br />What I have been arguing is my assessment and I'll sum it up here from my previous posts. 1) That these minor cultural divisions are natural. 2) That the existence of French-Canadian culture in Canada is not exclusive to Quebec. 3) That French-Canadian culture will exist as long as the decendents of French-Canadians exist. Therefore, making baseless the claims that being in a Canadian province will cause it to dissolve away. 4) That there is no national anti French-Canadian movement that could be used to justify the separation of Quebec. 5) That Quebec society is no different from Canadian society. 6) That being French-Canadian will not limit a person's prospects for advancement in Canadian society because of discrimination. <br /> <br />[quote]Yeah, that's right ! Let 's get all the sheeple riled up and scared of those French (secret Americans) who want to dissemble the country for silly reasons like sovereignty. With time, they"ll believe anything we say." [/quote] <br /> <br />First, you are wrong to assume that I was referring to the French because I wasn't. You obviously don't know anything about Manifest Destiny or the documented activites of American annexationists attempting to undermine Canadian soveriegnty (including Quebec). I simply posed, that perhaps some pro-American/pro-business types would attempt to create disharmony within our borders to foster an atmosphere ideal for further US integration. <br />



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:24 pm
 


<br />



If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can not anticipate our future actions.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:30 pm
 


Something went wrong with my previous posts so here it is again: <br /> <br />[quote]I'd said I wouldn't respond but I just want to point out no arguments have been brought forth from Canuck. [/quote] <br /> <br />Concerning my arguments, it's not that I didn't make any... you just didn't answer them in preference for grasping at straws and making broad assumptions resulting in you, stating the obvious, (that French-Canadian culture, like any other, is unique) in a weak attempt to prove that Quebec society has evolved into such a radical form that the Canadian public is rendered incapable to recognise it. <br /> <br />What I have been arguing is my assessment and I'll sum it up here from my previous posts. 1) That these minor cultural divisions are natural. 2) That the existence of French-Canadian culture in Canada is not exclusive to Quebec. 3) That French-Canadian culture will exist as long as the decendents of French-Canadians exist. Therefore, making baseless the claims that being in a Canadian province will cause it to dissolve away. 4) That there is no national anti French-Canadian movement that could be used to justify the separation of Quebec. 5) That Quebec society is no different from Canadian society. 6) That being French-Canadian will not limit a person's prospects for advancement in Canadian society because of discrimination. <br /> <br />[quote]Yeah, that's right ! Let 's get all the sheeple riled up and scared of those French (secret Americans) who want to dissemble the country for silly reasons like sovereignty. With time, they"ll believe anything we say." [quote] <br /> <br />First, you are wrong to assume that I was referring to the French because I wasn't. You obviously don't know anything about Manifest Destiny or the documented activites of American annexationists attempting to undermine Canadian soveriegnty (including Quebec). I simply posed that perhaps some pro-American/pro-business types would attempt to create disharmony within our borders to foster an atmosphere ideal for further US integration. <br />



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:02 am
 


Something went wrong with my previous posts so here it is again:

"I'd said I wouldn't respond but I just want to point out no arguments have been brought forth from Canuck. "

Concerning my arguments, it's not that I didn't make any... you just didn't answer them in preference for grasping at straws and making broad assumptions resulting in you, stating the obvious, (that French-Canadian culture, like any other, is unique) in a weak attempt to prove that Quebec society has evolved into such a radical form that the Canadian public is rendered incapable to recognise it.

What I have been arguing is my assessment and I'll sum it up here from my previous posts. 1) That these minor cultural divisions are natural. 2) That the existence of French-Canadian culture in Canada is not exclusive to Quebec. 3) That French-Canadian culture will exist as long as the decendents of French-Canadians exist. Therefore, making baseless the claims that being in a Canadian province will cause it to dissolve away. 4) That there is no national anti French-Canadian movement that could be used to justify the separation of Quebec. 5) That Quebec society is not appreciably different from Canadian society. 6) That being French-Canadian will not limit a person's prospects for advancement in Canadian society because of discrimination.

"Yeah, that's right ! Let 's get all the sheeple riled up and scared of those French (secret Americans) who want to dissemble the country for silly reasons like sovereignty. With time, they"ll believe anything we say."

First, you are wrong to assume that I was referring to the French because I wasn't. You obviously don't know anything about Manifest Destiny or the documented activites of American annexationists attempting to undermine Canadian soveriegnty (including Quebec). I simply posed that perhaps some pro-American/pro-business types would attempt to create disharmony within our borders to foster an atmosphere ideal for further US integration. So please, quit it with the self-important and insulting rhetoric... and by all means, don't let me stop you from contributing another post.



If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can not anticipate our future actions.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:30 am
 


Why do we need governments to protect our culture for us? Governments are the most inefficient organisations out there. <br /> <br />What is that Quebecois would think that an independant/autonomous government would do that the current provincial/federal governments aren't doing? <br /> <br />Many Albertan seperatists claim to have a distinct culture than Ontarians, do they deserve the same concessions as Quebec has right now?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:47 am
 


Finally, I've managed to fix my post (could anybody else see it before or was it just me?). <br /> <br />Until somebody can give true answers to my 6 points above, I will continue to consider the agenda of separation to be nothing but an elaborate con.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:07 pm
 


[QUOTE BY= Canuck] Finally, I've managed to fix my post (could anybody else see it before or was it just me?). <br /> <br />Until somebody can give true answers to my 6 points above, I will continue to consider the agenda of separation to be nothing but an elaborate con.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />It is an elaborate con, no doubt. Quebec isn't a nation, it's a diverse province. Despite this, they've voted separation down twice, despite voter fraud, intimidation and a trick question. Canada is the only country in the world that would allow a region to hold a referendum on separation. Sepration is about creating an ethnocentric state in which more racist laws would be passed than already exist. (According to Quebec's very own courts.) <br /> <br /> <br />Anyone know why our posts keep coming up blank sometimes? It's even happening while we write them after we click 'preview.'



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:07 pm
 


To all the people in Quebec who care only about themselves and what's best for them I found as essay on the internet that your about to read so that you can understand how the rest of Canada feels about this on going issue of seperation. <br /> <br /> By Carolynne Wheeler <br /> <br />The mountains of British Columbia and the narrow downtown streets of old Quebec City are divided by more than just geography. <br /> <br />When the threat of Quebec separation last reared its head in October 1995, people across the country watched anxiously to see what would become of Canada. <br /> <br />They saw last-minute rallies in support of Canadian unity, and federalists sighed in relief on referendum night as the polls finally tipped past 50 per cent. <br /> <br />But during that time, and ever since, Quebec politicians have argued that the West has been unsympathetic to their need to protect the Quebecois language and culture. They don't understand, said the politicians. Historically, we're too different. We're Quebecois: we speak French, not English, we have a different civil law, we have a different culture. We are too different to remain in a country that can't accept us without trying to assimilate us, and we must protect the things that make us unique. <br /> <br />The separatists' perception of rejection was not helped by the federal Reform caucus. Then only two seats shy of Official Opposition status, the Reformers were anxious to show what they believed to be the West's opinion. <br /> <br />Preston Manning said then that Quebec was welcome in Canada, but on Canada's terms -- no declaration of Quebec as a distinct society, and decentralization of federal powers to ALL provinces instead of just Quebec. And even though the country was a fine line away from divorce, it's a position Manning has not moved from. <br /> <br />"For the past few decades, Canada has been governed by an ideology which holds that an overpowering, overspending central government is the answer to every problem, including that of national unity," he says in his party's current platform. "Through decentralization and a greater emphasis on local responsibility, we believe we have a realistic plan that will build a stronger, more united Canada. It will help us achieve our common objective of keeping Quebec in the federation." <br /> <br />In Reform's opinion, "distinct society" is empty rhetoric. A Triple-E (elected, efficient and equal) Senate and decentralized federal government are better answers. <br /> <br />Why? Because historically, the West has felt alienated from central Canada. If Quebec and Ontario politicians are united on an issue, all the west's votes combined cannot overturn central Canada's will. The Reform party itself was formed out of western discontent with existing government institutions. Its first rallying cry, "The West wants in!", won them 52 seats in the 1993 federal election. <br /> <br />With the exception of one MP from Ontario, all Reform's caucus members are from the West: Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia. It's easy for the Bloc Quebecois, and even the provincial Parti Quebecois, to assume they represent the majority of westerners' opinions where Quebec is concerned. <br /> <br />Read more about Reform party strategies <br /> <br />The question is, does western Canada really care if Quebec stays or goes? <br /> <br />"Is it not time to consider holding a referendum for all other provinces and territories to decide whether or not we want Quebec in our country? Why should 12 per cent of the population of the entire country decide for 100 per cent what is and is not Canada? I'm fed up of paying for a referendum every few years; this one province is holding the rest of the country politically, economically and emotionally hostage, and they are using our money to do it!" writes "Darryl" from the University of British Columbia on a Calgary Herald discussion group about Quebec separation. <br /> <br />"Why do we continue to supply our captors with bullets? Even when we permit them to decide for themselves, and they do, why does the question not die? How can it be democratic to shove the separation issue down the throats of Quebeckers year after year when they consistently say no? <br /> <br />"I am of French lineage, but not proud." <br /> <br />This post is just one of many in the discussion group which voice frustration at separatists. <br /> <br />"Looks like la belle province has already separated," writes Peter Faulkner. "They just need to get the paperwork done." <br /> <br />And, from Roger Wilner, comes this post: "Don't agonize about it. Canada will have a glorious future without them. Besides, Quebec will be right there. They will have to deal with Canada in many mundane ways, because they aren't going anywhere. <br /> <br />"Start thinking about what Canada will be able to do without them acting as a tremendous weight in national affairs. View the next couple of years as a successful weight loss program." <br /> <br />They are words of frustration and even of anger that this question of separation will not die. After years of uncertainty, many people in the West have decided that if Quebec wants to go, they won't try to stop them. <br /> <br />"I think most of Alberta and the western provinces are convinced they could do well without Quebec. They don't give a damn," says associate professor Claude Couture, who teaches various social sciences courses at Facultie Saint-Jean, the University of Alberta's French-language campus. The Montreal-born francophone has taught at the university for six years. <br /> <br />He cautions that all the western provinces cannot be lumped together. Manitoba and Saskatchewan have a stronger French-speaking population, a weaker economy and an gentler political climate where Quebec separation is concerned. <br /> <br />Nor can everyone in Alberta and B.C. be tarred with the same brush. Couture says many of his colleagues are concerned about the prospect of secession, but their worries are more for the isolation of the Atlantic provinces than for the loss of Quebec. <br /> <br />"But yes, I think I could say that maybe Alberta and B.C. could not care less overall." <br /> <br />But the situation may not be that negative. Prof. Allan Tupper, who teaches political science at the University of Alberta, believes that many people are actually quite anxious at the prospect of another referendum. The misconception that people don't care, he says, comes from the West's isolation from Quebec: because the issue isn't in people's faces every day, they don't talk about it. <br /> <br />"There's many people very worried about the fact that there might be another referendum and it may be lost," Tupper says. "There are also some who say, 'bring it on and we'll deal with it.' <br /> <br />"There's a debate, but there's no debate. The issue is there, but no one is really talking about it." <br /> <br />Back on the discussion groups, though, secession is a hot topic once raised. <br /> <br />A message from a daring soul who believes the Canadian government should negotiate with Quebec meets with a decidedly-mixed reaction. <br /> <br />"Passively hoping Quebec will separate, or pretending that separation won't matter is not a good approach to take. Instead of continuing to build the misconceptions about Quebec and the Quebecois, we must try to understand the motivations behind the sovereignist movement and try to compromise, not ignore or give up," says Kent Glowinski from McGill University. <br /> <br />"Always keep in mind that there exists a fine line between federalism and Quebec nationalism. Remember that the original members of the Bloc Quebecois were disgruntled federalists from the PCs and Liberals...some would even go as far as to say that Lucien Bouchard is still a federalist at heart." <br /> <br />The responses? <br /> <br />"It seems to me that a society (Quebec) that has almost 50 per cent of its population wanting to secede confronts us with an issue that needs to be addressed. Why don't we simply get down to the business of addressing it by negotiation, rather than going into training for another boxing match?" writes David Nash at the University of Alberta. <br /> <br />"I very much doubt if anything like 50 per cent, even of the francophone population of Quebec, really wants total separation from Canada; certainly nothing like that proportion of anglophones outside Quebec wants to see them leave. If we go about it with the civilized intention of resolving the situation by whatever means seems reasonably, rather than posturing aggressively, we will might get a wonderful surprise: a better and more cohesive country." <br /> <br />But not everyone is convinced of this logic. <br /> <br />"Don't ever think that I will accept that they are special or deserve an unfair advantage," says Peter Faulkner. "If I keep bending any more I'm gonna snap. Why should I keep on trashing my heritage to preserve theirs?" <br /> <br />Check out more of these discussion groups. <br /> <br />So perhaps it's not so far off to assume that Reform's platform represents a majority of the population in British Columbia and Alberta. But that might change after the next federal election, which must be held sometime between now and the end of October. <br /> <br />The rebuilding of the federal Progressive Conservative party combined with a slight resurgence of support for the Liberals will erode Reform's stronghold on Alberta and British Columbia, predicts Tupper, although he doesn't expect them to be wiped off the political map, either. <br /> <br />With federal Tories and Liberals traditionally more "Quebec-friendly," the direction of the unity crisis may change. <br /> <br />Then again, maybe not. <br /> <br />Last January, the Liberals announced a plan to eventually grant constitutional vetoes to each of -- initially -- five regions: British Columbia, the Prairies, Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces. They began a process that would recognize Quebec as a distinct society, albeit through legislation rather than in the constitution. But they also began research on the legalities of secession, hinting at a more hard-line approach in the future. <br /> <br />Given that even the federal government's invitation to Quebec is to stay on Canada's terms, the West's mood may not be anti-French, as many Quebeckers feel, but merely a reflection of frustration and misunderstanding: we care about Quebec, but -- perhaps -- enough is enough. <br /> <br />That very sentiment may be what finally drives Canada apart.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:21 pm
 


Dino: you may wish to consider the Submit feature in Vive rather than clutter a thread that has this questionable title. Dr. Caleb&Co. are most receptive to new insight stories (with nice titles). <br /> <br />Whenever I mention to people that I can relate to some of the Reform stuff, they ask me if I am nuts. I guess I am a Western Canadian and I have not been called gaulcon for no reason! I thought these Reform people were keen on grassroot citizen and direct democracy initiatives such as referendums to make governments more accountable. That was the part that I could relate to very much. I obviously have major issues with most of their personal agenda on liberal matters such as role of women, minorities, etc... Very heartland attitude IMHO. And I am all for cleaning up the Liberals crony regime wherever the cronies reside. But I can decouple this from Quebec and separatists; I can guarantee you the cronies are not separatists. <br /> <br />Therefore I think I generally agree with this article to the point that I have suggested that Canadians should direct their will on these issues in a referendum and stop the bickering. I will point out I never saw your comment on this article story of mine. Light my candle now.



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[QUOTE BY= gaulois] Dino: you may wish to consider the Submit feature in Vive rather than clutter a thread that has this questionable title. Dr. Caleb&Co. are most receptive to new insight stories (with nice titles). <br /> <br />Whenever I mention to people that I can relate to some of the Reform stuff, they ask me if I am nuts. I guess I am a Western Canadian and I have not been called gaulcon for no reason! I thought these Reform people were keen on grassroot citizen and direct democracy initiatives such as referendums to make governments more accountable. That was the part that I could relate to very much. I obviously have major issues with most of their personal agenda on liberal matters such as role of women, minorities, etc... Very heartland attitude IMHO. And I am all for cleaning up the Liberals crony regime wherever the cronies reside. But I can decouple this from Quebec and separatists; I can guarantee you the cronies are not separatists. <br /> <br />Therefore I think I generally agree with this article to the point that I have suggested that Canadians should direct their will on these issues in a referendum and stop the bickering. I will point out I never saw your comment on this article story of mine. Light my candle now. [/QUOTE]<BR><BR>I know there is already a thread for direct democracy and that the idea is pretty popular around here, but here is why I don't like it:<BR><BR>I don't think your average citizen who works 40+ hours a week has the time or the will to collect the necessary information to make informed referendum choices on a regular basis. If people wanted direct democracy, I'm sure we would have it already. But many if not most people vote for their MPs with the understanding that they will make informed decisions and not bother them again for four years.<BR><BR>There is also the danger of decisions being made in an emotional way. What if a referendum on capital punishment was held a week after Holly Jones' murderer was convicted? It is possible that this gruesome murder would have a disproportionate impact on the public mood and result in an uninformed and emotional decision being made. <BR><BR>Generally speaking, when a minister makes an important decision, it is after seeking professional advice and listening to various interests and lobby groups. He can therefore get different opinions and make an informed decision. There is no way to ensure that this information will be absorbed by the public before they make their decision.<BR><BR>Finally, if a law is passed that I don't agree with, I can vote for a different government and encourage other people to do so. But what can I do if my fellow citizens decide to criminalize abortion? I can't dump my neighbour the way I can dump my government, and to convince a great number of people of my point of view requires lost of time and costly mass communication methods.<BR><BR>I used the examples of capital punishment and abortion because Reform members have suggested holding votes on these things. I think these issues should be decided by ministers, and subsequently judges, who are paid to look at the issue from every angle and make an informed decision, rather than people who probably have an opinion already and do not have an obligation to make a responsible and informed decision.<BR><BR>Maybe one day when people work 20 hours a week or less and have the time and will to get informed, this wouldn't be such a bad idea. But so many people(including Reformers and Vive posters!) complain that many people can't make informed decisions once every four years to choose MPs; if they can't choose an MP well(that's not my opinion, by the way), wouldn't it be a terrible idea to have them decide things like same-sex marriage or whatever other issue comes along?


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DD will not fix everything and there is still a need for the legacy system. There are many personal/ideological/political issues that even the average overworked Canadians can deal with. If they are going to bicker over it they should have a will to voice. And they do not need to answer every referendum questions. If the Americans can do this, I would think we can. And also, DD would not be so much of an issue if the current system worked. The average overworked citizen could prioritorize things and should not be treated paternalistically by a self-serving state. There is likely a huge attitude issue on this. I have called this brainwashing and programming for the benefits of an elite in control.



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[QUOTE BY= gaulois] DD will not fix everything and there is still a need for the legacy system. There are many personal/ideological/political issues that even the average overworked Canadians can deal with. If they are going to bicker over it they should have a will to voice. And they do not need to answer every referendum questions. If the Americans can do this, I would think we can. And also, DD would not be so much of an issue if the current system worked. The average overworked citizen could prioritorize things and should not be treated paternalistically by a self-serving state. There is likely a huge attitude issue on this. I have called this brainwashing and programming for the benefits of an elite in control.[/QUOTE]I don't think the American example is one to be followed. To my knowledge, there wasn't a single ballot initiative dealing with the possibility of a draft, the erosion of civil liberties, huge deficits and all the other important issues, except same-sex marriage.<BR><BR>Instead, Americans were asked if junk food can be used to bait bears and wether there should be a 5 cent return on pop cans. Do the legislators really need to ask the people about these issues? Wouldn't it make more sense to ask people and organizations that specialize in hunting and widlife preservation, then make a decision?<BR><BR>This just seems like a waste of time and money, since these referendums aren't free. A general election in Canada costs the government $250 million(not including party subsidies). Do we want to spend that sort of money to find out what people think about largely unimportant issues? The costs would be so high and the counting of up to 20 different questions on one ballot so complicated that the government would have no choice but to use paperless machines like they are starting to do in the United States. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I don't trust them!<BR><BR>As for the paternalistic attitude you speak of, I'm no psychologist so I can't really offer much of a comment on that.<BR><BR>Anyway, instead of speaking in general terms, maybe we should get down to specifics. What issues do you think would be best decided by popular referendum?


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