[samuel]

whelan costen you and many other Canadians question the idea of Québec as a nation as though you lived in a role model perfect country, that's not the case and you know it. To suggest you have the slightest idea of what's best for Québec as an Albertan is simply outrageous. I don't have all the answers, michou doesn't have all the answers and neither did the founding fathers of your confederation. I know you didn't bring up "la loi 101" that fired up michou, but I'm convinced that's what you were refering to when you mentionned the rights of anglophones within Québec. Many separatists are not convinced this law is flawless either, but it was a last ditched effort to preserve what a dominant Anglo society was intent on stamping out, our culture. Perhaps with Québec having a clear national identity as a country, this is something its citizens will choose to bring up in legislature. For now, we're stuck with you and you with us so please respect our aspirations for a better tomorrow.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen]By this do you mean that because we are lied to regularly Gilles Duceppe should be no different?[/QUOTE] <br />What is this horse manure of a comment? Did you not watch the leaders' debate? Not only did Gilles Duceppe not make any excuses for what he represents, he clearly said what his party is, a party comprised of separatists. Moreover, the Bloc's attitude in parliament is nothing short of exemplary. They have the power to wreak havoc like Federal governments have so done in Québec throughout history, yet they don't.

[whelan costen]

Horse Manure indeed, I did listen to Duceppe during the debate, I listened to all the interviews and as I asked you, and you chose not to answer, he did say that the Bloc were not running on a platform to separate, NOT, and yet he turned that completely around and said the vote for the Bloc was a clear message for separation! So then you suggest I look at other platforms, and again I ask you are you saying that it's ok for Duceppe to mislead because the others also mislead? <br /> <br />Now Michou you say that Quebecers have the right to separate and it isn't just the original ancestors that have that right. <br /> <br />So if I move to Quebec tomorrow do I have the right to fight against separation? Who have you decided has the right to decide Quebecs future, how long do you have to live in Quebec to have that say? You also say that culture is not about language, then you say that the Anglos were threatening to destroy the culture by stamping out the language; rather a contradictory comment, don't you think. <br /> <br />Finally as off track as we have gone on this issue, my question is not really about whether the people have the right as much as it is do the people know the truth, are the people really being given the facts about what a choice for separation means? I don't feel that any of us get the entire story from our politicians and so my question is do the people who will make that decision have all the facts laid on the table, because that will make a difference for many. <br /> <br />Although you say none of it matters and that you know there will be discussion about land transfers etc.; why don't you want all the facts out there before you make a break?

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Horse Manure indeed, I did listen to Duceppe during the debate, I listened to all the interviews and as I asked you, and you chose not to answer, he did say that the Bloc were not running on a platform to separate, NOT, and yet he turned that completely around and said the vote for the Bloc was a clear message for separation! So then you suggest I look at other platforms, and again I ask you are you saying that it's ok for Duceppe to mislead because the others also mislead?[/QUOTE] <br />What do you not understand about the Bloc's role in parliament? There is NOTHING, I repeat for posterity, NOTHING the Bloc can do or say on the Québec sovereignty issue in parliament. YES they ARE sepratists, NO they have never lied, misled or hidden this fact from anyone. <br /> <br />If you move to Québec tomorrow and there is a referendum, yes you'll have your democratic say. The great injustice in the past though is that OUTSIDE counter influence came in to play. You are the AMERICAN style no holds barred imperialistic fear mongers, not us!

[shadowibis]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= whelan costen]By this do you mean that because we are lied to regularly Gilles Duceppe should be no different?[/QUOTE] <br />What is this horse manure of a comment? Did you not watch the leaders' debate? Not only did Gilles Duceppe not make any excuses for what he represents, he clearly said what his party is, a party comprised of separatists. Moreover, the Bloc's attitude in parliament is nothing short of exemplary. They have the power to wreak havoc like Federal governments have so done in Québec throughout history, yet they don't.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />So what havoc can they cause? They could always continually threaten to pull out of Canada I suppose. Wait a sec.. they're already doing that. I don't know. What could it be? <br /> <br />There it is again. The "The Evil Federal Government" argument. I've heard that said a couple of times now, so can anyone provide me the details? As far as I know, France lost a war to England back when before our country began being de-populated of aboriginals. I had nothing to do with that. I'm sorry that Quebec was the victim of aggression by England back then. <br /> <br />This much I believe is true; that big business interests, aided and abetted by politicians (who happened to be Anglophones), exploited Quebec's people and resources. That does not mean that other peoples, including Anglophones, in Canada weren't as equally exploited. <br /> <br />So if the majority of Quebecers want to have their own nation, the ROC shoudn't stop them from doing so. But if this is a plan to destroy and break up Canada so the Americans can move in, then they should be resisted from doing this with all we have. <br />

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= shadowibis]So if the majority of Quebecers want to have their own nation, the ROC shoudn't stop them from doing so. But if this is a plan to destroy and break up Canada so the Americans can move in, then they should be resisted from doing this with all we have.[/QUOTE] <br />There we have it, an honest Canadian. Americans justified arming Afghans with "everything they had" to prevent communism advance and now we have Anglo Canadians justify using American "values" to get their way. This begs the question, what have you to reproach Americans? <br /> <br />On your other questions, move to Québec, get married to a francophone and have francophone children then perhaps we can talk about issues pertaining to Québec. Until then you're an outsider looking in through a telescope.

[shadowibis]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= shadowibis]So if the majority of Quebecers want to have their own nation, the ROC shoudn't stop them from doing so. But if this is a plan to destroy and break up Canada so the Americans can move in, then they should be resisted from doing this with all we have.[/QUOTE] <br />There we have it, an honest Canadian. Americans justified arming Afghans with "everything they had" to prevent communism advance and now we have Anglo Canadians justify using American "values" to get their way. This begs the question, what have you to reproach Americans? <br /> <br />On your other questions, move to Québec, get married to a francophone and have francophone children then perhaps we can talk about issues pertaining to Québec. Until then you're an outsider looking in through a telescope.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Aw now you're just being stupid. I'm trying to protect my country, not conquer one. Aren't you? As far as reproaching Americans... you first. <br /> <br />I live in beautifull New Brunswick; have a lovely French speaking family; Acadian partner; kids go to French school (not immersion). I'm not an outsider, I'm among you. Next question.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= michou] So what are you saying gaulois ? [/QUOTE] <br />I am saying that according to history, there is a 10%-20% percentage of lunatics on BOTH sides that will keep pissing each other off and spoiling any hope of peaceful settlement. I have seen those and live on both sides. I have worked with people that came out of these wasted countries. Talk to them and ask them what they think. Make sure you genuinely listen to them. <br /> <br />That means 10-20% of francos ***AND*** 10-20% of anglos. You can also add 10-20% of First Nations, 10-20% in ROC, 10-20% allophones, etc... Countries do not generally come about without shedding blood. Quebec has already tried two times and did not get the 50% absolute min. The allophones have already clearly say no to this. If you think that you can separate a country without a clear majority under these conditions and have, let's say 49% vote no and think you will not have a bloodshed, I am saying you have not learnt from history and are bound to repeat it. <br /> <br />Sois pratico-pratique. IMHO you are creating far more problems that you are solving. I must note that I keep getting a blank stare when I ask exactly what problems are you trying to solve. I get the same blank stare when I ask what is so different in Quebec so that history does not get repeated. I see political leaders pressing the same hot buttons, antagonising each others, flagwaving, chest beating, playing the persecution acts, refering to history sore moments, media picking up the bad vibes on both sides so they can sell more hate content catering to unemployed or intellectuals that have never worked in their life and other people that have absolutely nothing to lose. If they do not have a life now, they will not get one anymore after either. <br /> <br />How many more times do we need to rip each other apart before we learn the true nature of mankind? Do you not think that in Yougoslavia there were people saying "let's not go there" and do you not think that these people were depicted as fear mongerer. Check Rwanda, Nazi Germany, Northern Ireland, Middle East, Vietnam, etc... How do you think things got out of control??? No we are not as barbarians as "them"? Dream on: we are just as barbarian as they are and every once in a while conditions get unleashed for the next bloodshed. <br /> <br />I am so far away from Quebec that this will never affect me and my loved ones directly but I still deeply care about certain people out there. Think about your own loved ones. What are they going to get out of this? And what do they risk losing? <br /> <br />EDIT: And if this was not enough fear "mongering" think now about the kind of weapons that lunatics (on BOTH sides) now have access to. This is not going to be a few bombed mailboxes next time around. And what is different between the Serbs or whoever got slaughtered in Constantinople and refering to Lord Durham, the Patriots and the Abraham's plains. I myself see ****no difference*** whatsoever. NONE. Sure call this fear mongering.

[Calumny]

If and when most Quebec residents choose to pursue a course separate from Canada, it will be in the best interests of Canada to support those aspirations. Prior to that time, there is no point discussing the benefits of remaining in Canada with Quebec sovereignists because that just isn't on the agenda. This type of discussion will inevitably be held on the field of feeling rather than logic and as such will invariably sink into a quagmire of attacks and insults. <br /> <br />The bottom line is that this issue is not a life or death matter for Canada and should never have been treated as such. <br /> <br />Many years ago, shortly after the formation of the PQ, I wrote an essay concerning the separatist movement in Quebec. My conclusion was that eventually separatists would form the government and eventually Quebec would seek its own destiny. I didn't receive a good mark for that essay. <br /> <br />My personal viewpoint wasn't for a number of reasons in agreement with the separatist perspective or goals, nor is it now. However, that viewpoint may have been different had I been raised in Jonquiere rather than Toronto. In the end, it's just my viewpoint. The conclusion arrived at in my essay was based on what I, for a number of reasons, perceived to be, inevitable, if not from my perspective preferable for most involved. <br /> <br />I believe that many of the arguments and fights in which people and nations become embroiled end up, like their original causes, meaning nothing at some point after the fact. As to whether Quebec does eventually become a nation, either way daily life will continue on for most people as it does now. As with most things in life, what will happen will happen and it will be better for all if we continue on in as friendly a way as possible. <br /> <br />I would recommend the book 'The Europeans' by Luigi Barzini as one which may provide some insights pertinent to this discussion.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= shadowibis]But if this is a plan to destroy and break up Canada so the Americans can move in, then they should be resisted from doing this with all we have.[/QUOTE] <br />I'm being stupid? I'm a lunatic? Read yourself first. I'm just thankful a minority of level-headed Canadians such as Calumny are still around.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] I'm just thankful a minority of level-headed Canadians such as Calumny are still around.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I am affraid you are still going to have to put up with the 10-20% lunatics on the anglo (&franco) side. Do you really not think they exist??? And if they do exist, how do you deal with them? Sois pratico-pratique.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= shadowibis] <br /> <br />So if the majority of Quebecers want to have their own nation, the ROC shoudn't stop them from doing so. But if this is a plan to destroy and break up Canada so the Americans can move in, then they should be resisted from doing this with all we have. <br />[/QUOTE] <br />This has got to be the funniest conspiracy theory I've ever heard in my life. What next ? Québécers are not what they seem to be. They are extra-terrestrials. But hush, don't tell anybody ok ? <br /> <br />This thread is getting more and more twisted and I can just gape at the reasoning behind the words I've just read. <br />This is what I'm hearing: <br />"We are Canadians and so are you. Why may you ask ? Because WE said so." <br />You are all starting to sound a little too much like Americans to me So democratic of you, thank you. How long before you also take my other rights away ? <br /> <br />That's it ! Eureka ! I now understand the reasoning, It's because you are only Canadians by name also. Deep down you are no different than Americans. You are the same. <br />Is it difficult looking at yourself in the mirror and see their spitting image looking back at you ? <br />So it is true then, without the Québec difference, Canada is nothing. Well not nothing, just another American state. <br /> <br />So people, how does it feel being categorized as northern Americans ? Do you enjoy it ? Don't worry though, truth does hurt sometimes but you'll eventually get over it. Give it a few centuries and then you won't feel a thing, I mean no Canadian thing anyway now that Québec is an empire and rules the world.. <br /> <br />Signed : Michou XI , the twisted sister.

[Calumny]

Canada is a relatively young country. I believe that it has been stumbling along a difficult road towards being a country that could offer a great deal of value to the world. I believe that much of what is good in Canada is a result of the best of its constituent cultures coming to the fore. <br /> <br />However, if most residents of a province or area, be that Quebec, the Maritimes, Alberta, a First Nation or other, don't believe this or see any value in suffering through the long haul, it doesn't serve any constructive purpose to argue the point. <br /> <br />The ideal world might be a global entity which exists to meet the best interests of its citizens and the planet in general. Failing this, it is desirable for whatever national entities that exist to work within an environment of co-operation and respect towards the benefit of their citizens. <br /> <br />This being the case, if Quebec does resolve to form a nation, I'd prefer it be one with which Canada can maintain a friendly and mutually beneficial, for the citizens, relationship. <br /> <br />The bottom line is that this is not a life and death issue. Canada and Quebecois culture will continue to exist so long as the will to maintain these continues to exist within the pertinent citizens, regardless of whether Quebec remains part of Canada or becomes a separate nation.

[shadowibis]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= shadowibis]But if this is a plan to destroy and break up Canada so the Americans can move in, then they should be resisted from doing this with all we have.[/QUOTE] <br />I'm being stupid? I'm a lunatic? Read yourself first. I'm just thankful a minority of level-headed Canadians such as Calumny are still around.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />No you're not stupid. I apologize. A little obtuse pershaps though. But I don't agree with Calumny either, so calling him 'level-headed' is like giving me a personal compliment.

[whelan costen]

Do you really believe that it is so strange to think it possible that the destruction of Canada through Quebec is not on the agenda? We are now hearing those same kinds of voices once again in Alberta? I know that the people are not the ones to benefit from the greed of those pursuing this break up of Canada. <br /> <br />I resign myself that I will not get a clear answer on this thread from the voice of the people, as to how this is beneficial to anyone. So far it is just the party line, and clearly many writers are becoming so emotional that the facts are no longer relevant. <br /> <br />But I also know in my heart that the rise of anger, the sense of injustice and the attacks against each other are fueled by those who care not one bit for the people of Canada, but only for their own pockets and the thirst for power.