[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br />Those who peddle the idea we will perish are fear mongers, not unlike the fear mongers who would flag whip Québeckers into submission while greasing the pockets of their corporate friends.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I read this as persecution. Levesque, Bouchard, Landry, Parizeau often came across as being persecuted. I would expect if someone feels persecuted, he/she would want to become independent. <br /> <br />I did not say that Michou came across as persecuted but will say it now if she thinks I did. And yes I will bring up Eastern Europe: were not the Serbs, the Bosnians and the Croats leaders telling their constituents they were persecuted by the other groups? If you do not, look Eastern Europe, look at the Middle East, Northern Ireland, etc... <br /> <br />What makes you think that Quebec hot buttons and political landscape are so different??? Call this fear mongering as much as you want. It was exactly the same back in May 1980 when I left Quebec the week before the 1st referendum. History teaches that same wars get fought over by people thinking their case is different from all the other ones. The same gullible people fight these wars until they realize that it is too late to step back. <br />

[whelan costen]

michou I am not sure why this is not a good place to discuss the who, what, where, when and why's? You say you'll deal with whatever happens when it happens; that is fine. But is it not better to consider all sides, before you head for a decision. I have not heard in all the discussions on this issue, a true reason or positive outcome, other than to say you will be masters of your own home. <br /> <br />This is a major change and I don't hear any consideration for the minorities within Quebec, will Quebec protect other cultures as Canada has done in Quebec. Will Anglos have rights, which many don't have now, what about the ethnic cultures that have been encouraged to immigrate to Quebec, will they have protection in the new Quebec? <br /> <br />To say it is what you want and the rest of us have to learn to accept it is not entirely true. The rest of us have a stake in Quebec, many of us also have a history in Quebec which we have taken outside of Quebec. We, other Canadians have assisted in supporting Quebec for many years, assisted in the growth, assisted in paying for services to build a strong Quebec, so you can't say that we don't have a right to express concern over this issue. Well you can say it, but it wouldn't be true.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] [QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br />Those who peddle the idea we will perish are fear mongers, not unlike the fear mongers who would flag whip Québeckers into submission while greasing the pockets of their corporate friends.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I read this as persecution. Levesque, Bouchard, Landry, Parizeau often came across as being persecuted. I would expect if someone feels persecuted, he/she would want to become independent. <br /> <br />I did not say that Michou came across as persecuted but will say it now if she thinks I did. And yes I will bring up Eastern Europe: were not the Serbs, the Bosnians and the Croats leaders telling their constituents they were persecuted by the other groups? If you do not, look Eastern Europe, look at the Middle East, Northern Ireland, etc... <br /> <br />What makes you think that Quebec hot buttons and political landscape are so different??? Call this fear mongering as much as you want. It was exactly the same back in May 1980 when I left Quebec the week before the 1st referendum. History teaches that same wars get fought over by people thinking their case is different from all the other ones. The same gullible people fight these wars until they realize that it is too late to step back. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Québec is a peaceful and democratic nation and has no intention of taking arms in order to gain its rightful place in the world of nations. <br />It wishes to do so democratically, peacefully and then be able to negotiate the terms in good faith with all Canadians. <br />So what are you saying gaulois ? Are you saying Canadians will not let Québecers go even if they choose to do so democratically ? Are you saying Canadians would go to war over this and be ready and willing to kill separatists who had voted for an independant Québec ? <br />Is this the kind of country Canadians want for themselves, one that forces its vision and values by pointing at it with a machine gun ? That's the American way and I who thought Canadians were different from their southern neighbor. If Canadians start going down that road, I may just have to change my mind about some of them. <br /> <br />A few crazies may decide to throw in a few bombs to scare the people on both sides of the issue. We all know this is a strong possibility . It has happened before and is bound to happen again. I don't think anybody would be surprised if a few blew up in Québec after a vote for independance. <br />But having the Canadian army marching into Québec to stop it from becoming what it has rightfully and democratically chosen for itself is of an entirely different nature. <br />Québécers will defend their nation against military aggression if they have to but I certainly will not be the first to pull the trigger and the last I heard, ballots are not bullets.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen]This is a major change and I don't hear any consideration for the minorities within Quebec, will Quebec protect other cultures as Canada has done in Quebec. Will Anglos have rights, which many don't have now, what about the ethnic cultures that have been encouraged to immigrate to Quebec, will they have protection in the new Quebec?[/QUOTE] <br />And why on earth wouldn't there be? It is a well established fact that as far as libertarian values are concerned, Québec exceeds any other province or state in North America. As for your vested interests, that's one of the reasons why we want out and will gladly compensate you for them.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] michou I am not sure why this is not a good place to discuss the who, what, where, when and why's? You say you'll deal with whatever happens when it happens; that is fine. But is it not better to consider all sides, before you head for a decision. I have not heard in all the discussions on this issue, a true reason or positive outcome, other than to say you will be masters of your own home. <br /> <br />This is a major change and I don't hear any consideration for the minorities within Quebec, will Quebec protect other cultures as Canada has done in Quebec. Will Anglos have rights, which many don't have now, what about the ethnic cultures that have been encouraged to immigrate to Quebec, will they have protection in the new Quebec? <br /> <br />To say it is what you want and the rest of us have to learn to accept it is not entirely true. The rest of us have a stake in Quebec, many of us also have a history in Quebec which we have taken outside of Quebec. We, other Canadians have assisted in supporting Quebec for many years, assisted in the growth, assisted in paying for services to build a strong Quebec, so you can't say that we don't have a right to express concern over this issue. Well you can say it, but it wouldn't be true.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />So what do you want us to do Whelan ? Should I start negotiating with you about how the Canadian debt will be split, how about territory boundaries, or the use of currency, or which strategic alliances Québec will become party to or not. The list could go on and on and on and on. We all know these issues will need to be looked at but this cannot be done until AFTER a vote for independance, not before. <br />And who are we to come to terms with these issues ? Are we the experts ? Have no worry, when the time comes and when they are put on the table, we will know about them and we will have our say. <br /> <br />What do you know about Québec minorities ? How long since you've walked the streets of Québec cities and seen it's multi-colored hues? Why are you so afraid for them ? Why do you think Québec nationalists fought so hard to gain control over its immigration process? Did you read any of my posts at all ? Again this is a paternalistic approach to Québec and a bad try at wanting Québécers t be perceived as a racist lot which we all know is false and wrong. Québec minorities are safe in Québec NOW and it is not because Canada 'protects' them from the bad separatists. Grow up please. Racism exists everywhere and Québec is no exception but there are levels of racism. Québec is renowned for its openness and its acceptance of different cultures and races. <br />You know Gilles Vigneault don't you ? <br />You know of his song 'Mon Pays' ? <br />Here is a short translation of one couplet: <br /> <br />"From my grand solitary home, <br />I will shout never be quiet <br />To all men of the earth <br />My home is your home. <br />Within my four walls of ice <br />I have taken my time and space <br />Tending the fire, the place <br />For humans on the horizon <br />And all humans are of my race." <br /> <br />As René Lévesque once said: " Is a Québécer who wants to be a Québécer." <br /> <br />Anglos have the same rights in Québec than in the rest of Canada. If you want to point to Bill 101 as contrary to it, then tough. Québécers have the duty to protect and preserve their language and culture and the right to live, work and play in their own language. If the rest of Canada provided the same rights Anglos enjoy in Québec, we would not be here to talk about how French communities outside Québec are slowly dying and suffocating. The same cannot be said about Anglos in Québec. Not only that but more and more liberal-progressive Anglos and Americans are eyeing Québec for immigration. They are all welcomed. Just one thing though, they should take French classes as this IS a french-speaking nation. I would not dream of emigrating to Germany but refuse to learn to speak the language. Why should it be different for Québec ? <br /> <br />What I find very difficult with these discussions is that most comments are made based on pre-conceived and false notions about Québec. Little if no effort is even made to investigate what Québec is and why this movement for independance will not die. It certainly is not because there is a lack of information on the subject. <br />Again, there are too many Canadians who still prefer to think that Québec is a parasite on their back and that if it has survived at all it is thanks to the goodness and goodwill of Canada. Québec is what it is today because of what it has done to become what it is. I would never have the gall to go to Albertans, Nova Scotians or Ontarians and tell them that without Québec by their side they were nothing and are still nothing. What nonsense !

[Calumny]

I would hope that if most Quebec residents determined they would like to chance being a separate nation, there would be no nickel and diming by the Canadian government as to what, geographically speaking, comprises Quebec. Should the day come that Quebec becomes a nation, it will be in the interest of all involved to maintain amicable relations and ensure, rather than undermine, the viability of Quebec as a nation. <br /> <br />Obviously there are many issues and interests that would need to be addressed in the transition of nationhood. <br /> <br />The references to Bosnia etc. are hopefully not germaine to any discussion of Quebec. In each case, the horrors we know of are in the main results of hatreds and grievances that extend so far back that most participants today couldn't tell you the origins. It's mostly a result of hatred feeding off itself through generations, and creating an environment where those who exhibit the worst of human nature can thrive. <br /> <br />I'm neither for or against Quebec forming a separate nation. As previously stated, I am dubious as to whether a separate Quebec would in the end be better for most Quebec or Canadian citizens and have seen no evidence that would lead me to believe otherwise. However, if most Quebec residents don't agree, my views on the matter are irrelevant. And, I don't know everything and can't foresee what the future will bring. So, in the end I must support the right of Quebec residents to choose their future and have to believe they will make the right choice, whatever that ends up being. If I can't believe that, democracy doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Going with the flow on this issue makes more sense to me than existing in an acrinomous or resentful relationship. <br /> <br />The reality is that Canada will not end if Quebec becomes a separate nation, nor is this possibility the greatest threat to Canada remaining the nation we know and value. Quebec becoming a independent nation need involve violence or ill-will only if the involved parties make bad choices, as has been the case in other parts of the world. Given Canadian values, I am confident this will not be the case, and believe that in fact this could be the ultimate test and validation of these values. <br /> <br />

[tifani]

I don't understand all this talk about Quebec separatism that seems to imply most Quebcers want to be separate but somehow are being forcibly prevented from leaving. If so, then WHY have all the referendums voted down separation? That's the most democratic way of dealing with the question.

[whelan costen]

Why is it when I express my concerns on this issue I am told to grow up, or that my opinion makes you sick? How can I possibly understand the passion you display if you don't explain it; you are making many suppositions and assumptions rather than fact. That is all I am asking for but you meet my questions with hostility, why? <br /> <br />It is not a paternalistic attitude that motivates my questions, and Bill 101 you write off as if it is nothing, but it has caused great hardship for some Anglos, and you say well tough! So once again I am confused, where there are large communities of French speaking people in other parts of Canada, they do work, play etc in French, I grew up in such a community. Obviously there is not the demand elsewhere in Canada for more of these communities, but you are denying Anglos the right to work, play etc. in Quebec in their mother tongue which is also one of the officials languages of Canada. So you are telling me too bad if we don't like it, but then you are saying Quebec is being fair. But again you are also saying too bad because Quebec is a nation, when it is not, yet. <br /> <br />I just don't understand why a discussion between lay people about the issues, needs to become 'you make me sick or grow up' if that was the issue, then I wouldn't be bothered to have the conversation. Adults do discuss issues, maturity allows both parties to debate their concerns intelligently without name calling. <br /> <br />When people start saying, too bad for you, this is what we want and tough for the rest, it is hard to take those arguments as founded on solid facts, or not hear frustration that they don't know the facts to argue. <br /> <br />As far as what do I want you to do, it isn't my desire to make you do something, you brought the issue up and I responded with questions. You have made statements on a forum which is commited to Canadian Sovereignty and for me Quebec is part of that commitment. So when you make comments which clearly threaten that sovereignty I am going to ask the why, where, who, what and when questions. <br /> <br />I will always ask the questions which I believe will help me to understand the entire issue, I will always demand answers from politicians which help me to decide whether they are acting for Canadians or for themselves. This forum is the voice of Canadians and I desire to know more about the concerns of all Canadians and to consider how we can make Canada better for everyone. That is my purpose, not to talk-down to someone with an opposing opinion but at least debate the opinion expressed if I don't agree. That is democracy is it not? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'>

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= tifani] I don't understand all this talk about Quebec separatism that seems to imply most Quebcers want to be separate but somehow are being forcibly prevented from leaving. If so, then WHY have all the referendums voted down separation? That's the most democratic way of dealing with the question.[/QUOTE] <br />Good question tifani! The answer to that is simple, Quebeckers were not left to themselves to decide. Outside forces were hard at work inside old age homes using fear mongering and every other dirty trick in Federal doctrine. Millions upon millions of dollars were stacked up against Quebeckers much in the same way American elections are won except here, the scales of power were drastically tipped to one side. Most importantly, despite all this influence, 49% of Quebeckers voted in favor of nationhood.

[whelan costen]

Samuel if it is only fear mongering that is the problem, why did Duceppe not come out and state his position prior to this last election? Why did he in fact state the opposite to gain votes for the Bloc and then declare it as a win for separation? Those voters who were told one thing and voted to get the Liberals out and then find out they've been mislead must wonder about the tactics? <br /> <br />This clearly doesn't reflect the voters desires but is merely another tactic to lie to the electorate to get the outcome desired by the politician. How can you say that the people want something when they don't know what it is they are voting for ?

[samuel]

whelan costen you need to find an unbiased translation of Gilles Duceppe's post election speech. He did in fact state that the Bloc's success was by voters who supported a separatist party and not necessarily those who supported separation. And by all means, please examine other candidates' performance throughout this circus before critisizing Gilles Duceppe.

[whelan costen]

Samuel says: 'And by all means, please examine other candidates' performance throughout this circus before critisizing Gilles Duceppe.' <br /> <br />By this do you mean that because we are lied to regularly Gilles Duceppe should be no different? I say if a politician truly believes that what he proposes is good for the people why does he shroud it in lies? Was Free Trade good for Canada, if it was why weren't we told the truth? Is the BMD good for Canada, if it is why aren't we involved in the discussions, why are the talks all secret? If separation is really good for Quebec why mislead the people into voting for it? <br /> <br />During the Russian revolution the leaders were zealots proposing a better way for all, take away from the rich and give to the poor...good idea, but that was not the real truth behind the mission and the people were led into a slaughter and lived in poverty for 70 years and still are struggling to come back. <br /> <br />Here is a question from my perspective which is a total mistrust of politicians motives; Do the leaders behind the Bloc really intend for Quebec to be a nation or could they be participating in the destruction of Quebec to enhance the easier takeover of all of Canada by another power? I believe that is what is driving the Western Separatist movement and so I wonder if that is not the case in Quebec and it is the reason I ask all the so called juvenile questions? Now I am sure that Mr. Duceppe is not the kind that can be bought, but then I never thought that about most of our leaders but I have obviously been wrong. Any thoughts on that? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'>

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Why is it when I express my concerns on this issue I am told to grow up, or that my opinion makes you sick? How can I possibly understand the passion you display if you don't explain it; you are making many suppositions and assumptions rather than fact. That is all I am asking for but you meet my questions with hostility, why? <br /> <br />It is not a paternalistic attitude that motivates my questions, and Bill 101 you write off as if it is nothing, but it has caused great hardship for some Anglos, and you say well tough! So once again I am confused, where there are large communities of French speaking people in other parts of Canada, they do work, play etc in French, I grew up in such a community. Obviously there is not the demand elsewhere in Canada for more of these communities, but you are denying Anglos the right to work, play etc. in Quebec in their mother tongue which is also one of the officials languages of Canada. So you are telling me too bad if we don't like it, but then you are saying Quebec is being fair. But again you are also saying too bad because Quebec is a nation, when it is not, yet. <br /> <br />I just don't understand why a discussion between lay people about the issues, needs to become 'you make me sick or grow up' if that was the issue, then I wouldn't be bothered to have the conversation. Adults do discuss issues, maturity allows both parties to debate their concerns intelligently without name calling. <br /> <br />When people start saying, too bad for you, this is what we want and tough for the rest, it is hard to take those arguments as founded on solid facts, or not hear frustration that they don't know the facts to argue. <br /> <br />As far as what do I want you to do, it isn't my desire to make you do something, you brought the issue up and I responded with questions. You have made statements on a forum which is commited to Canadian Sovereignty and for me Quebec is part of that commitment. So when you make comments which clearly threaten that sovereignty I am going to ask the why, where, who, what and when questions. <br /> <br />I will always ask the questions which I believe will help me to understand the entire issue, I will always demand answers from politicians which help me to decide whether they are acting for Canadians or for themselves. This forum is the voice of Canadians and I desire to know more about the concerns of all Canadians and to consider how we can make Canada better for everyone. That is my purpose, not to talk-down to someone with an opposing opinion but at least debate the opinion expressed if I don't agree. That is democracy is it not? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Whelan, you come out on this issue with no facts and little information about Québec to back you up. They are assumptions. Like the one about minorities in Québec. I answer your queries to the best of my ability and I do so as an insider. I have given links on the suject and more. Sometimes people only take what they want to hear and they leave what does not fit with their pre-conceived ideas to the side. This is the feeling I'm getting. <br />The way I see it is that you take your desires for reality. You strongest desire is for Québec to be a province like any other. It is not and it never will. This is why the independance issue still rages on. You would do away with bill 101 and allow French to die off like it is already happening across North America. Bill 101 did not kill anybody nor did it cause "great hardship'" to any Anglos. I have known Anglos, born and raised in Québec, who lived their entire lives here and did not speak a word of French. I don't know of anyone who would think this a sensible approach. In my eyes, it is an insult and affront to the dominant culture that surrounds it. Thankfully, more and more Anglos in Québec today are bilingual and some have even opted for Québec's independance. Yep, you heard me. There are Québec Anglos out there FOR Québec independance. <br /> <br />Discussions are different than voicing out one's concerns. Discussions should be fact based. Concerns will remain just that unless one checks if they are real or imagined. <br /> <br />As far as Canada's sovereignty is concerned, I'm all for it and would truly like to see Canada out of American and Canadian corporate control. Canada can and WILL exist as a sovereign nation even without Québec. Neither one needs the other to survive or to make its way and voice heard in this world of ours. Québec wants the same for itself that Canada wants. Sovereignty. <br /> <br />Let Québécers decide what and who they want to be and I in return will be more than pleased to support and encourage what Canadians will have chosen for themselves.

[shadowibis]

Great points Whelan. It's one of those things that make you go hummmmmm. <br /> <br />

[shadowibis]

Great points Whelan. Those things that make you go hmmmmmmm.