[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] This is the second time Quebeckers send 54 separatist seats to Ottawa, what else can we do to get your attention? We have a saying in this province, here's a translation "Canada does not listen, we will have to decide for ourselves".[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Every times certain Québécois try to extrapolate results of votes over the last 30 years, it has fired up the lunatics on the anglo side. The percentage of lunatics are comparable on both sides, believe me. Some people feed from this crap and will always see the glass of wine as half empty rather than half full. Now the francos hors-Québec have to deal with these lunatics. Do you people do this on purpose, would much rather destroy goodwill and screw the hors-Québec cousins??? It is certainly a good way to get them totally disconnected. It certainly does not help your case at my end. <br /> <br />Don't take me wrong, the liberals deserved well the vote they got in Quebec for having mangled up their power position on this sponsorship scam. That is a huge black eye to the p'tit gars de Shawinigan exitting the ring and his cronies. That is really too bad that he screwed that up so badly after having been able afterall to keep us out of Iraq and away from Bush misguided policies.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois]Every times certain Québécois try to extrapolate results of votes over the last 30 years, it has fired up the lunatics on the anglo side. The percentage of lunatics are comparable on both sides, believe me. Some people feed from this crap and will always see the glass of wine as half empty rather than half full. Now the francos hors-Québec have to deal with these lunatics. Do you people do this on purpose, would much rather destroy goodwill and screw the hors-Québec cousins??? It is certainly a good way to get them totally disconnected. It certainly does not help your case at my end.[/QUOTE] <br />I don't see "les francophones hors-québec" in a different light than any other persons of ethnic background. You have chosen to reside in a province dominated by Anglo ideology. We have made a different choice in Québec, a choice to preserve our language, heritage and culture. I'm sorry you feel we are lunatics for it, but this only serves to strengthen our resolve in taking the ultimate step to protect our assets. From the inception of confederation to this very day, Federal governments have left a legacy of deceit in Québec. Amongst people who face reality and dreamers who pretend all is fine and dandy, who are the lunatics?

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Amongst people who face reality and dreamers who pretend all is fine and dandy, who are the lunatics?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Who faces reality and who is dreaming here? Explain to me the reality that you perceive? The one that I perceive is that most francos *and* most anglos are very kind people. There is only a small percentage of francos and anglos that are real jerks. It would be great if these jerks could hate each other without affecting others. <br /> <br />The lunatics I was refering to BTW are the ones that think that the other group (franco or anglo) persecutes them. They typically do not like nuances such as "certain anglos (or francos) are jerks". The world is black and white to them and they expect others to see it as such.

[whelan costen]

QUOTE BY= Samuel ( From the inception of confederation to this very day, Federal governments have left a legacy of deceit in Québec.)

Please give examples of this deceit from confederation to this very day. I don't believe that Quebec has been slighted by the Feds any more than any other provinces and in fact as we see has been given many concessions that other provinces do not enjoy. We do not see any other province with a strong ethnic culture being preserved or encouraged in other provinces. No Irish/ English province, no Ukrania second language programs in Alberta, etc etc.

From what I see Quebec now enjoys the best of both worlds and certainly will not be a winner if they choose to separate. If you look at the instability in other countries torn apart by leaders who are zealous in their efforts to form new kingdoms, I don't see why Quebecers would chose that path, when they already have a unique province secure within a unique country. They enjoy peace and prosperity through the family unit; far more than they could alone.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] They enjoy peace and prosperity through the family unit; far more than they could alone.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />And who are you or any Canadian for that matter to decide what Québec's "level of enjoyment" should be ? And please do not give me Bosnia as a comparison. Québec is not Bosnia nor is it Ireland, nor Scotland, nor Puerto Rico, nor Slovenia, and the list goes on and on. <br />Québec is a nation that exists under colonization principles and it will remain this way as long as it stays under Canada's Federal jurisdiction. <br /> <br />The Québec you see today was built by Québécers not by Canadians. The "Révolution Tranquille" movement was its own and if Canadians succeeded in leaving their British identification behind, it was in large part because Québec's own revolution pulled Canadians into the 'modern light'. Pierre Trudeau said as much and he was a child of the revolution himself. <br />Québec is a 'distinct' and mature nation. It is natural for any mature nation or person to search for autonomy in order to decide its own destiny and attain its full potential. Québec will not be able to do this until it's free and no longer tied down under a federal jurisdiction. If most Canadians believe in a strong federal system to govern them, I have no problem with it but keep Québec out of it. Québec can and will govern itself one day and has no need whatsoever for the ROC in this matter. <br /> <br />What does Québec want ? It wants its full political freedom and the ability to write its own constitution. No Québec government, sovereignist or otherwise, ever accepted to sign the Canadian constitution. <br />It wants to develop its economic and social aspirations to their full potential. It will be unable to achieve this unless it fully manages its financial ressources and has the liberty to build and use its own tools. <br />It wants to protect its identity as a French speaking nation in North America. In order to do this, it must have full control over its cultural life and environment. <br />As a nation, Québec wants to participate and defend its interests on the world scene as an equal. There are 120 nations less populated than Québec now sitting at the UN. <br />Québec has full economic, cultural and social abilities to manage under its own governance. <br />Québec can do all this because it has ressources, a highly educated population and a thriving modern economy. <br />To say Québec would not be a 'winner' if it separated is your personal opinion but I believe it to be the other way around. Canada has much more to lose if Québec leaves the confederation. You speak of the "uniqueness" of Québec. Then explainto me why Canada always rejected recognizing it as a 'distinct society' when it is one ? <br />There comes a time when words mean nothing, that's when actions are needed. Québec WILL be free one day and its "uniqueness'" will be equal to all other nations. <br />Canada is NOT a family. It is a federation historically built on forced colonization. For separatists, Canada is a prison and it will remain so until Québec gains the necessary autonomy to be a master in his own home and alone, decide what is good or not for it. I will never allow Canadians or any other nationals decide otherwise for me.

[samuel]

There are two schools of thought against Québec sovereignty. Those who feel sentimental about Canada as a whole and those who are blinded by fear that we'll achieve unprecedented success. <br /> <br />Those who peddle the idea we will perish are fear mongers, not unlike the fear mongers who would flag whip Québeckers into submission while greasing the pockets of their corporate friends. That whelan costen is the latest deceit by Federal government.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br />Those who peddle the idea we will perish are fear mongers, not unlike the fear mongers who would flag whip Québeckers into submission while greasing the pockets of their corporate friends. That whelan costen is the latest deceit by Federal government.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />You obviously believe that Québeckers are persecuted. It seems to be the reality that you are perceiving. It looks like you are not going to change your mind about this (and neither will most people in the ROC or in Quebec). Remember the 34 blocs did not get voted in because Québeckers thought that the ROC was persecuting them. <br /> <br />May I ask what are you actually doing on Vive forum? I do not understand why you are wasting your time here other than destroying goodwill. I would much rather focus on common ground assuming there is some to work from.

[samuel]

I am here because a charming women replied quite eloquently to my email inquiring about why a francophone name was used to promote Anglo Canadian values. She also made it clear to me that francophone views of all stripes were welcomed and encouraged with the objective of further understanding one another despite hardline views on either side of the fence. <br /> <br />Thanks SThompson <br />

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br />Those who peddle the idea we will perish are fear mongers, not unlike the fear mongers who would flag whip Québeckers into submission while greasing the pockets of their corporate friends. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Well said. <br />That is why Canada now has 54 separatists sitting in its house of Parliament. <br />Québec will never submit. Face it and deal with it. <br /> <br />As Premier Robert Bourassa once proclaimed in front of Québec's National Assembly following the failure of the Meech Lake Accord: <br /> <br /><b> "English Canada must understand in a very clear manner that whatever is said or done, Quebec is today and for all times a distinct society, free, capable of assuming its destiny and its development." </b>

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] I am here because a charming women replied quite eloquently to my email inquiring about why a francophone name was used to promote Anglo Canadian values. She also made it clear to me that francophone views of all stripes were welcomed and encouraged with the objective of further understanding one another despite hardline views on either side of the fence. <br /> <br />Thanks SThompson <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Are you gaining further understanding? I am not.

[shadowibis]

So no doubt all Quebecers are aware that separating from Canada will have no negative consequences whatsoever. Its going to be a breeze. I can tell after reading this: <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.uni.ca/si_sect05.html">Boundary Issues in the Context of Quebec Succession</a> <br /> <br />and <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.uni.ca/gordon_wilson4.html">Wilson Commission</a> <br /> <br />Then what happens? Are Quebec separatists willing to have Quebec partitioned? Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me, but there would have to be a corridor from Atlantic Canada to the other provinces don't you think? <br /> <br />I hope that you interpret this as peace-mongering. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] <br />You obviously believe that Québeckers are persecuted. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I have read nothing of the sorts from Samuel's comments and none of mine speak of persecution either. <br /> <br />You want metaphors ? Then let me give you whelan's own about "families". <br /> <br />If nations are made of people, then nations should be treated as people. People usually grow up in families but this does not mean all families are tender and loving ones either. Caring about its members is not about stifling their aspirations and controlling their destiny. <br />Québec is a nation. Its people and society have had their share of hardships but through sheer perserance and belief in its right to exist, it has succeeded in surviving for 400 years. <br />Thanks to this determination for survival, it now possesses all necessary attributes to make it on its own in the 'big wide world' . <br />So to all those Canadians who falsely think of Canada as a family and provinces as little children, I have bad news for you. It is not healthy to force a mature and capable adult under one's parental influence and tutelage. A mature adult knows when it's time to leave and the time for Québec has come.

[Calumny]

If Quebec does eventually form an independent nation, I would prefer that it find 'unprecedented success' rather than failure because this would obviously be preferable for the citizens of both Quebec and Canada. <br /> <br />While it may not prove the case, I think there's at least a chance that Quebec nationhood could in fact strengthen both Canada and Quebec, if only by freeing the energy spent on this divisive, never-ending issue for redirection towards more productive areas. I'm assuming Canada and Quebec will maintain friendly relations, so both nations will continue to share cultures, ideas, and, hopefully, a common interest in maintaining their own identities, as opposed to that of our southern neighbours. <br /> <br />I believe that many Canadians outside of Parliament Hill and Quebec are tired of this on-going issue and would prefer a resolution, whether this be nationhood for Quebec or not. <br /> <br />From the 'rest of Canada' perspective, there may be many who perceive Quebec to have been favoured above most other provinces and believe that the survival of Quebecois culture has to some extent been due to the support of this culture by the nation as a whole. I'm not saying this is correct, only that it may be the perception and that this being the case many non-Quebecers may not fully understand the view that there has been an overall detriment to Quebec in being part of Canada. Those who 'have done the research' may be of a view some of the issues faced by Quebec these past hundred years or so have resulted from internal political or religious influences rather than external 'Anglo' or Canadian influences. Many 'rest of Canada' Canadians may be tired of what they see as the scapegoating of themselves by some in Quebec as being the sole authors of most problems historically encountered by that province. <br /> <br />Whether based on fact or not, the perceptions of the various involved parties are unlikely to change. <br /> <br />Given North American circumstances, I can't help but be dubious that Quebec nationhood would in the long run prove beneficial for most residents of Quebec and Canada. However, none of us can predict the future and this on-going issue only seems to increase hard-feelings and divisiveness and consume energy better spent elsewhere. This being the case, I'm an 'Anglo' who supports the concept of Quebec nationhood and who would be extremely happy to see this result in 'unsurpassed success' for both Quebec and Canada.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= shadowibis] So no doubt all Quebecers are aware that separating from Canada will have no negative consequences whatsoever. Its going to be a breeze. I can tell after reading this: <br /> <br /><a>Boundary Issues in the Contect of Quebec Succession</a> <br />and <br /><a>Wilson Commission</a> <br /> <br />Then what happens? Are Quebec separatists willing to have Quebec partitioned? Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me, but there would have to be a corridor from Atlantic Canada to the other provinces don't you think? <br /> <br />I hope that you interpret this as peace-mongering. <br /> <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Every separatist knows that once independance is done, there will be numerous negotiations with Canada and other strategic alliances. <br />This is not the place to discuss the who, what, ifs and buts of these issues, nor say how they will be concluded. This will be done AFTER Québec gains its independance and the Canadian Supreme court said as much when it declared that Canada would have to sit down and negotiate with an independant Québec. (it did not say, send in the army and force them back into submission) <br />Sovereignists hope that when the time comes, Canada will be able to sit down and negotiate in good faith. <br />Again, I will use Whelan's family analogy. It is easy to scare young children about all the 'bad' things that can happen to them outside the family circle. I have done many things in my life that made people think of me as very brave, which I am not. But instead of trying to figure out every bad little thing that could happen if I acted, I pondered on the most probable mishaps that could happen, decided to face them if and when the time came and took action. <br />The fears we like to play on and scare ourselves with rarely happen and most often not to the degree expected. Just like the unexpected can change your life for the worst and do it in a flash. Does this mean one should stop aspiring for something more or stop trying to be more than what he or she is, just in case something bad happens ? <br />It goes against the principle of evolution and that's the only thing life is about. Nothing remains the same. Everything is always evolving and changing. It does not mean we have to go out in the world totally blind to the reality that both the good and the bad can happen to different degrees to every man, woman and child. Nations are no exceptions.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] <br />While it may not prove the case, I think there's at least a chance that Quebec nationhood could in fact strengthen both Canada and Quebec, if only by freeing the energy spent on this divisive, never-ending issue for redirection towards more productive areas. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Thank you Calumny for your sensible words. <br />I've always believed that Québec nationhood would better serve Canada's interests than trying to keep it as province within a confederation it does not believe in or feels no part of. <br />Canadians would have a better chance in determining who they are, what they want and how they wish to live without constantly having a province holding them back because their vision is not shared. <br />This issue will not go away and if we had to name but one thing Québec has been able to prove to the rest of Canada, it is its determination. This determination to succeed will not vanish just because Québec is declared an independant state. <br />