[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois]I did not not think that you despise that much your cousins hors-Québec no longer pure-laine. And I can see that you are getting a little thin skin. Reminds me of Lucien huffing and puffing over hot air. I swear I am not trying to persecute you. If I am not with you, I must be against you. Reminds me of an other lunatic that happens to run a country....[/QUOTE] <br />To set the record straight, no not all Quebeckers feel this way, just some purists. I wanted to show you how it feels when civility is thrown out the door and you're personally attacked with insults and referred to as a lunatic repeatedly.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] [QUOTE BY= gaulois]I did not not think that you despise that much your cousins hors-Québec no longer pure-laine. And I can see that you are getting a little thin skin. Reminds me of Lucien huffing and puffing over hot air. I swear I am not trying to persecute you. If I am not with you, I must be against you. Reminds me of an other lunatic that happens to run a country....[/QUOTE] <br />To set the record straight, no not all Quebeckers feel this way, just some purists. I wanted to show you how it feels when civility is thrown out the door and you're personally attacked with insults and referred to as a lunatic repeatedly.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I am glad to see more nuances and the use of "certain (some)" in your posting. And some (and even many!) francos hors-Québec don't necessarily agree with my Quebec imperialism or my two franco solitudes rants if that may be of a similar relief to you. <br /> <br />What appears hard to accept is that when a delicate event occurs like the breakup of a country, the rules of logic and civilized exchanges simply no longer apply. We can discuss it as logically and politely as we want here but it is irrelevant when the rubber hits the road, i.e. the referendum vote results come in. It would not be pratico-pratique to call the RCMP, the SQ, the militaries or your courts that we all take for granted to solve these matters. Yougoslavia had all of those too or its equivalent when they ran the Olympics in Sarajevo. What happened after is commonly known as civil unrest. <br /> <br />I hope we have finally agree to disagree on several matters and I reiterate my welcome on the Vive forum in spite of the earlier sparks. I would be most interested in understanding where we similarly agree to disagree in the areas of francophonie hors-Québec. I hope, as a starter, that we can agree that there is no point arguing the likelyhood of civil unrest hors-Québec. I am also very curious in understanding why you think it is OK for the anglos to integrate in a sovereign Quebec while maintaining their identity and the francos hors-Québec can't do so in the ROC. I am trying really hard to apply logic here. Perhaps this would be better discussed on a different thread and in french? <br />

[samuel]

I'm sorry, but <br /> <br />1. I remained civil until you, yes you, referred to me as a lunatic for the forth (4th) time. The lack of civility was not brought on by me. <br /> <br />2. Even in my giving you a taste of your own disrespect, I did say many and not all Quebeckers felt this way. There is no sudden change of ideology, I've been consistent throughout these discussions. You're the one who generalised my comment to all Quebeckers. <br /> <br />3. I remind you that no separatist in these discussions has eluded to post referendum civil unrest in or out of Québec. If this is your fantasy then I'm sorry you torture yourself like this. <br /> <br />4. I fail to understand why you would be concerned about the post referendum fate of Anglos within Québec. When was the last time you spoke to an Anglo Quebecker? I know Québec and its people and I also know Anglos born and bred in this province. They are just fine, come for a visit and find out yourself ! <br /> <br />5. Please post in some comprehensible fashion then perhaps we can agree to disagree (?) on whatever it is you wish for me to disagree upon. <br /> <br />Have a nice day <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> <br />

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] I'm sorry, but <br /> <br />1. I remained civil until you, yes you, referred to me as a lunatic for the forth (4th) time. The lack of civility was not brought on by me. <br /> <br />2. Even in my giving you a taste of your own disrespect, I did say many and not all Quebeckers felt this way. There is no sudden change of ideology, I've been consistent throughout these discussions. You're the one who generalised my comment to all Quebeckers. <br /> <br />3. I remind you that no separatist in these discussions has eluded to post referendum civil unrest in or out of Québec. If this is your fantasy then I'm sorry you torture yourself like this. <br /> <br />4. I fail to understand why you would be concerned about the post referendum fate of Anglos within Québec. When was the last time you spoke to an Anglo Quebecker? I know Québec and its people and I also know Anglos born and bred in this province. They are just fine, come for a visit and find out yourself ! <br /> <br />5. Please post in some comprehensible fashion then perhaps we can agree to disagree (?) on whatever it is you wish for me to disagree upon. <br /> <br />Have a nice day <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> <br />[/QUOTE] <br />I do not recall directly refering to you as a Lunatic but I observe that you jumped right in. By the same token, you will notice that I refer to both you and I as possibly mildly lunatics in order to defuse this stuffy debate and differentiated from the severely lunatics that require medication <br /> <br />Separatists don't typically like to mention the topic of "civil unrest" following a 51% yes vote. I understand that you may not like others to remind you that shit happens under these circumstances. <br /> <br />And I was in fact talking to my anglo brother in law this morning!!! that has very nicely integrated to the franco lot and yet maintained his anglo identify while staying in Canada and in Quebec. He never went to Ontario like most of his bunch! And my daughter is currently planning to take on grad studies in Montreal. I am hoping that she will get a better franco exposure through this than what I have been able to give her while was focused on paying the bills while shew grew up. She travelled in France two summers ago. I will be in the Province of Quebec at least three times by the time the year is over. <br /> <br />Et qui méprises qui? Me comprends-tu mieux en français?

[samuel]

Congratulations gaulois on exposing your daughter to more "francophonie", she will thank you for it. I hope you also can spend as much time here as you possibly can. <br /> <br />A HUGE WELCOME TO QUÉBEC FOR YOU AND YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY !!! <br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <br /> <br />P.-S. gaulois, j'avoue que j'ai de la difficulté à comprendre tes allocutions en anglais comme en français, désolé.

[michou]

I posted the following comment on the Social Chatter forum a few days back and I think it deserves a spot on this one also. <br /> <br />michou wrote: <br />[QUOTE]... I would personally say Canadians are perceived from other countries as being generally polite, amiable and reserved... [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Ok, so I got it wrong with the reserved part, but this thread is a good example of what's called "identity". <br />Nourish it and never lose it. <br /> <br />Good posts and readings everyone. <br /> <br />Now let that rubber hit the road, man ! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <br /> <br /><i>on edit: Hey ! I've just noticed I'm at the </i><b>loonie</b> <i> level now. Oh my <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> ! You'd all better watch out !</i>

[whelan costen]

Interesting posts for certain. I am however wondering why when the 'what if's' are presented they are considered fear mongering? <br /> <br />Whenever a decision is made I like to consider the what if's, although no one can know with certainty what will happen in the future, I do believe we can learn from history and attempt not to repeat mistakes which have cost so many people lives. <br /> <br />So for me the issue will always be to consider the 'what if's' and for those who don't that is their choice also.

[samuel]

Whelan I don't know if you'll accept this coming from me, a separatist, but life is a myriad of unanswered "what ifs". Should people stop aspiring to achieve based on this? <br /> <br />We feel Canada is restraining us in evolving past what we've achieved, is this so difficult to understand? In fact, I don't understand why Canadians don't comprehend us. You have all reinstated crooks as a minority government because you felt the alternative endangered your social services. How do you feel about us wanting to make sure nobody decides on our behalf if some George Bush or crook ends up manipulating our affaires in Ottawa? <br /> <br />This I'm sure you can understand, but there's much more to it than that. For example, our culture is a porcelain doll in the hands of gorillas and we are little mice dancing around underneath it to make sure it doesn't break. We are running out of breath and need to break from the gorillas <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Calumny]

As a person who has spent much of their life pondering the 'what ifs' related to my personal choices, I agree that considering the consequences of a course of action is of value. However, you can, as michou has pointed out, also set yourself up for a lot of needless worries about 'what ifs' that never end up happening or end up creating the very situation you fear through that fear or find yourself never moving forward. If you eliminate the chance of failure by not taking an action, you also eliminate the possibility of success arising from that action. If all European explorers had stopped to consider the 'what ifs', we'd all still be back in Europe (which from a First Nations perspective might not be seen as being all that bad). If Bill Gates had given into the 'what ifs' we wouldn't all have this wonderful MS software...okay, better stop myself there. <br /> <br />I personally don't see any of the 'what ifs' raised in this thread as being intended as fear-mongering. These just need to be balanced with the upside 'what ifs', such as 'what if Quebec became a highly successful nation'? 'What if the relationship between Canada and Quebec became stronger than had previously been the case'? 'What if the energy and resources wasted by both sides on this debate could be channeled to more productive pursuits, e.g., focussed on de-globalizing globalization'? <br /> <br />The bottom line is risk, and if the day ever comes when most Quebecois see the potential benefits of nationhood as justifying all of the potential risks and pitfalls, then I'll wish them the best and hope to remain friends. If other Canadians see a significant risk to Quebec leaving,it's up to them to create an atmosphere in which most Quebecois, and for that matter other Canadians, wish to stay. I don't think the Canada to which Harper would lead us and Bush would welcome us is that nation, though it seems the one we're headed towards. <br /> <br />Having only recently come across this site, I've found the discussions here to very productive and educational. Although I work with many people from Quebec and consider them friends, I've never had the opportunity to spend much time in the province and have never discussed the separation issue with someone who supports the concept of Quebec as a nation (I must admit to never having enquired as to the views of my co-workers/friends in this regard). <br /> <br />So, I'm very grateful to michou and Samuel for sharing their views, as well as the other participants who have made me aware of facts that I hadn't previously known. <br /> <br />I don't think a lot of Canadians outside of Quebec have the opportunity to understand where those who support nationhood for Quebec are coming from. Similarly, I'm sure many Quebecois have preconceptions about 'Anglos' that are not in truth applicable to most non-Quebec Canadians. <br /> <br />I may be wrong but I can't help feeling the the federal government's rather ham-handed efforts through the years to promote federalism in Quebec and 'encourage' bilingualism outside of Quebec have done more to worsen the situation than anything else and have created or supported fears and antagonisms that never should have existed or should have been addressed and resolved many years ago.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny]I may be wrong but I can't help feeling the the federal government's rather ham-handed efforts through the years to promote federalism in Quebec and 'encourage' bilingualism outside of Quebec have done more to worsen the situation than anything else and have created or supported fears and antagonisms that never should have existed or should have been addressed and resolved many years ago.[/QUOTE] <br />This is as truthful as truth can get and is exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned a legacy of deceit.

[Calumny]

And my last comment today is... <br /> <br />The first priority in Canada should be reform of the totally unsatisfactory artifact of the past that we term a 'representative' democracy. I'm not sure that fixes, such as senate reform, PR, etc., to an antiquated and unsatisfactory system will in the end leave us any better off than we are today. In terms of michou's on-target comment, our current system essentially leaves us only in the position of choosing between which of the sharks or the barracudas will devour us, not with the choice of remaining undevoured. <br /> <br />Given the technology of the day, I'd prefer to dump the whole 'party' and adversarial process (as others on the board have indicated would be desirable), make 'representatives' more in the line of well paid 'experts'hired to run the government on behalf of, and accountable to, the people and utilize direct democracy, e.g., referendums for major policy decisions. <br /> <br />Beyond putting the power where it belongs in the hands of citizens, this would have additional benefits. As no centralized meeting place is required in this system, the parliament buildings could be converted to much needed public housing and the public service distributed across the nation in a more sensible and efficient manner, e.g., Fisheries HQ on a coast rather than in Ottwa, than is currently the case. <br /> <br />Why we continue to support a system where our democratic right boils down to choosing which pre-selected party hack will have the opportunity to participate in the mismanagement of our province or nation and whose 'working' day to earn their pension generally consists of pointless bickering about inconsequential issues is beyond me. <br /> <br />The political system in this country needs to be radically altered so that it actually meet the needs of a modern society and puts the power to determine the course of the nation in the hands of the nation's citizens rather than a small elite, be that elite of a 'left' or 'right' orientation. <br /> <br />Of course, it also wouldn't hurt to start putting a bit more emphasis back on the responsibilities of citizens to make their society work. <br /> <br />There is no way countries like Canada will be able to resist some of the less desirable, for most, trends sweeping the world today without a radical altering of our political processes. I think Tommy Douglas pretty much summed it all up with his black cats/white cats, story.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Calumny]I may be wrong but I can't help feeling the the federal government's rather ham-handed efforts through the years to promote federalism in Quebec and 'encourage' bilingualism outside of Quebec have done more to worsen the situation than anything else and have created or supported fears and antagonisms that never should have existed or should have been addressed and resolved many years ago.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Current bilingualism situation in Canada is an excellent example of "shit happens" when we try to deal with a delicate and complex problem through an ideology, do fantasy-land wishful thinking and entrust its resolutions to petty politicians and bureaucrats without really getting the People involved on "pratico-pratique" matters. They use to call it "shove it down" our throat and treat the people like morons. Latest spin on this was this truly pathetic sponsorship scam. <br /> <br />I would not go as far as just bluntly discard that the entire effort of bilingualism is a total write-off but will say that it requires very serious revisiting as well as the political will to do so. The right-wing anglo or franco radicals (sometimes referred as Lunatics mild or severe) would love to just tear everything down. I do entirely agree that Trudeau's view of bilingualism has so far caused just about as much grief as good (please remember situation before Trudeau before mouthing off) but I am not prepared to write the entire effort off. I will say for instance that Radio-Canada has been one of my key lifeline to francophonie over the last 25 years since leaving Quebec! And this was not say that I do not have *major* problems on how Radio-Canada operates hors-Quebec. <br /> <br />Canada can do and has got to do far better than this. The Vive forum looks like an excellent place to do the "revisiting" of bilingualism (and/or federalism) by the People. Petty politicians and bureaucrats certainly wont. <br /> <br />This is the end of this thread for me. I look forward to whoever kickstart the new thread(s) under either the Quebec/francophonie or the Canadian politics forum sections.

[samuel]

<br />I would like to thank the administrators of this site and everyone for giving me the opportunity to participate in this discussion and end it with this thought: <br /> <br />Québec separatism is not about our hatred for Canada, it is about our love for Québec. <br /> <br />Peace <br /> <br />Samuel

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] <br />I would like to thank the administrators of this site and everyone for giving me the opportunity to participate in this discussion and end it with this thought: <br /> <br />Québec separatism is not about our hatred for Canada, it is about our love for Québec. <br /> <br />Peace <br /> <br />Samuel[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Hi Samuel. I'll be happy to address the points you've brought up, but I have to call you on your hypocrisy. <br /> <br />You can love Quebec as much as you want to, but you can love it within Canada. If you don't hate Canada, become a federalist, or stop being hypocritical. Separatism is treason. Canada includes Quebec, and most Quebeckers want to remain in Canada. The French were not forced to colonize, they signed up during Confederation by choice.

[samuel]

Can someone please move Perturb's hatred into the "Why I Hate Separatists" thread so we can move on from there. <br /> <br />Thanks