[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Marcus] [QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]<br /> Yeah they peacefully took it[/QUOTE]<br /> Forgive me gaulois for further dragging this thread the off topic route. However, dress it as you may, it nonetheless will always be an <b>alliance-come-invasion</b>.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]<br /> but the amerindians were very glad to have guns, mirrors[/QUOTE]<br /> Let's not forget the epidemics introduced (freely offered) by the European newcomers, which devastated the aboriginal population (BTW, are you a smoker?). Additionally, do you believe natives enjoyed having Jesuits force feed them the 'truth', simply because they were savages and needed to be 'saved'? Do you fathom the damaging irreparable effect this kind of behavior had upon the native's culture, language, and religious beliefs?<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> I can't help but notice how applicable the last sentence applies to the "Second" Nations living out of its Quebec reserve... Replace the Jesuites by the Orangeists. The alliance-come invasion reminds me of the deal George-Etienne Cartier and subsequently Sir Laurier struck. <br /> <br /> You can replace the Orangeists by the Neocons/free markets zealots in order to scale this up to what's happening to today's majority, i.e. the "Third" Nation. The Manifeste would actually scale up quite well in regards to media reforms, democratic instances reform and breaking up the unsustainable bubble in which les p'tits amis live in.<br /> <br /> Back to thread topic?

[Amiral]

[QUOTE]N.B: You didn't understand a word of what I wrote in french up there. You do not speak french at all, that's why you post in english in "La Francophonie" forum[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Bonjour Dino! J'espère que la lecture en français t'aidera à écrire bientôt en français! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <br /> <br /> Mais... c'est peut-être vrai que c'est dans les gênes anglo-saxons que de ne pas être capable de se mettre dans la peau de l'autre, du dominé socialement en fait. M'enfin... <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> <br /> Gaulois, je dois avouer que j'ai en haute estime le travail que tu fais pour doter les FHQ d'un outil de communication. Depuis le temps que j'en rêve! Créer une véritable diaspora québécoise fière de son histoire, de sa langue et de ses traditions et qui ne se laissera pas marché sur les pieds. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'> <br /> <br /> Demande conseil au B'nai B'brith, le conseil juif, il n'y a pas plus calé qu'eux pour se protéger. On devrait en prendre exemple.<br /> <br /> Malheureusement, il y a un petit côté de moi qui est plutôt négatif. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'> Je crois que le temps nous manque pour pouvoir vivre en français sans hésitation et sans doute de l'autre côté du MUR ontarien. <br /> <br /> Mes cousins vivant à Sudbury ayant suivi leurs parents plus jeunes, par exemple, se fichent pas mal du fait que leur nom est Tremblay. Leurs enfants portent des noms anglais, ce qui donnent, ouch, Dean Tremblay, Daisy Tremblay... Voilà la réalité, l'assimilation se fait en moins de 3 générations <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/frown.gif' alt='Frown'> C'est incroyable! Durham cherchait le mode d'emploi, maintenant, sans effort on a trouvé. La façon la plus simple est de laisser venir les gens. <br /> <br /> 3 générations... c'est tes petits-enfants...<br /> <br /> Le canard doit être plus qu'un médium internet pour que les francos hors-québec survivent, Gaulois, tu dois en faire un lobby de défense des droits des FHQs.<br />

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Amiral] 3 générations... c'est tes petits-enfants...[/quote]<br /> Même pas! Souvent une: j'ai vu ce qui m'est arrivé et ce qui est arrivé à plusieurs de mes connaissances franco.<br /> [quote]<br /> Le canard doit être plus qu'un médium internet pour que les francos hors-québec survivent, Gaulois, tu dois en faire un lobby de défense des droits des FHQs.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> Un pas à la fois. L'éveil d'abord en reprennant le contrôle de nos médias qui alimente l'apathie et le décrochage. Les "droits" des FHQs, ca peut devenir bien compliqué. Les premiers droits sont d'avoir nos propres médias (i.e. pas de propagande) et d'élire nos propres représentants dans un système qui s'engage à ne plus systématiquement décimer notre identité.

[lesouris]

Okay, I had to say something about what I'm reading here. Let me first start by saying that while I can read French, I am horrible at writing it. Yes, I am from Onatrio - Toronto actually, and I am not fluent in French. Does that make me a bad person? No. Is a monolingual francophone a bad person? No.<br /> <br /> So please humour me, as I attempt to sort through this thread trying to make some sense of it.<br /> <br /> So some people are saying that every francophone in Canada must learn English to be successful; they say this is unfair. Others have pointed out that this is because English functions as the business world's lingua franca, which is quite true. This is because the US, a predominantly anglophone country, is the world's only great economic superpower. Two hundred years ago when France was a great superpower, French was the world's lingua franca; two hundred years from now there will probably be another.<br /> <br /> So English is the world's lingua franca right now, that explains why so many francophones have to learn it, but why do so few anglophones learn French? Why are some even hostile to francophones? Well, firstly, anglophones don't need to learn french to be successful economically; they already speak the linguia franca. Secondly, French as a school subject in Canada is almost universally dispised - not because it is French, but because it is taught in such a horrible fashion. I'd say few French teachers are actually fluent, most having to use a French-English dictionary when a student askes "Comment dit-on [whatever word] en française?". French class usually consists of very childish-themed units, even into secondary school (I remember Grade 9 French had a unit about a talking pig at a circus and another about two children at grandma's house who find a time machine in the attic), and conjugation of verbs (every year we learnt how to conjugate the same verbs; it was not exciting at all).<br /> <br /> I remember the one year I actually enjoyed French class was the one year I had a native French teacher. He was a middle aged Acadian man with many colourful stories about his exploits in New Brunswick and Louisianna. With him, we did not do what would normally occur in a French class. Instead, we wrote plays, recited speaaches, and did relevant projects in the French language. At the end of that year, I was able to read and write in French (although I have since lost my writing abilities).<br /> <br /> Now onto a sticky subject: why are some anglophones so openly hostile towards francophones? Well, one reason is that most of our first encounters with French are in a classroom setting with French teachers. From my own experience, most French teachers I've had were either exceptionally mean or condescending or just insane. I don't know why they were, but they were. Another reason maybe that, again going back to the school, French immersion students tended (at least in my day) to be elitist. They were told they were smarter, and they acted like everyone else was stupider. Many students might come to equate the French language with that sort of attitude at a sunconscious level. When these children grow up and see francophones in Canada say things about how stupid anglophones are for not knowing French, that same feeling is re-awakened.<br /> <br /> You also have to remember what Franch Canada's face to the anglophone population is: politicians and businessmen. When these people become corrupt or break promises, that harms the image of francophones. Don't forget that the last Prime Minister who ran outside of Quebec (excluding Turner and Campbell who never won as PM) was Joe Clark, and he didn't get to govern all that much, did he? The last PM to sit a whole term outside of Quebec was Pearson. Think of all the scandals since then, how many broken promises, all blamed on francophone leaders. I'm not saying that anglophones could do a better job. What I'm saying is that the image a lot of anglophones have of francophones is influenced by these leaders who haven't always done a great job.<br /> <br /> And then there's the treatment anglophones get in Quebec. I was kicked out of a store in Quebec City because I was from Toronto. Would an Amercan have gotten kicked out? I doubt it. Afterall, they knew I was an anglophone right when I walked in; they did not kick me out till they found out I was from Ontario. And don't think this is an isolated incident; I have heard many people tell me their stories about how rudely they were treated in Quebec. I think we really need to realize that we're both really mean to each other, and overcome that. This is not a one sided meaness; it is reciprocated. Maybe we should consider a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.<br /> <br /> And of course for some people the seperatism thing comes into the equation. Afterall, isn't seperatism just saying "we know how to do this better than you, because we're smarter" to the same people who were told they weren't smart for knowing French since elementary school? That might not be why seperatists want to separate, but that is the image they have in anglophone Canada.<br /> <br /> There is a great misunderstanding between Canada's French and English peoples, and we need to straighten this all out before things get any worse.<br /> <br /> Just as an aside, I would like to express my disapproval of the term "Second Nation" to describe Canada's francophone peoples. Something about it just doesn't sit right; that the French ethnic group should have special rights and protections even in areas originally settled by the English. I mean, what about non-French francophones, and how long would it be before the English claimed Third Nation rights? How would that effect smaller ethnic groups in Canada that would be left out in the cold with fewer rights just because their great great great grandparents didn't live here? But this is a whole different debate.<br /> <br /> So to summarise my points:<br /> 1. There is an unfortunate lack of communication between anglophones and francophones leading to misunderstanding and prejudices on both sides<br /> 2. We should start communicating to break down these myths about each other<br /> <br /> I'm sorry if this is all off-topic and that I posted in English in the French section.

[gaulois]

I much agree with most of what you are saying. It is quiet unrealistic for instance to expect the ROC to be able to write in French. I however do expect people to be able to read short French sentences certainly with the help of google translation without feeling offended that French is shove down their throat. Vive seems most supportive of this.<br /> <br /> I however expect the RdC to let its First Nations and "Second Nations" identify themself as such, whether it is under Québécois, Acadiens ou Canadiens, which is very different from Canadians. Failure to do this is IMHO the major reason for Quebec separatism and growing movements by First Nations people to sovereignty when both groups can aggregate in sufficient numbers, control their immigration and form a majority. <br /> <br /> You should also understand the impact of not recognizing the "nation" identity claims of these groups living outside their reserves: i.e. assimilation and ongoing decay of the cultural&other diversity these groups can contribute. I don't buy the argument that the country mix has changed and we should therefore treat these groups like any other ones such as new Canadians coming from Eastern Europe. The Canada act of 1867 recognized three founding nations groups and we should live by that. If Canada can't do this anymore for whatever reasons, portions of the country that no longer feel relevant should be able to part their own way without people getting all uptight over this. Minority will go back to their respective "reserves" then. Le Manifeste du Canard would actually like to prevent the scenario of polite ethnic cleansing that we are actually heading toward.

[lesouris]

You misunderstand me gaulois, I did not mean to suggest that I didn't support recognition of our French nations as nations. I do, however, have some problems with calling them "Second Nations" especially in areas where the French did not settle until after the English or other groups.<br /> <br /> I think that we have an unfortunate habit of equating the French ethnic group in Canada with the French language group in this country; there are non-French francophones and non-francophone French people. The term "Second Nation" has many ethnic connotations, and I'm conderned that perhpas non-French francophones would be left out simply because of their ancestry. Perhaps "Francophone Peoples" would be a better term, although it does lack that ring to it, or "Francophone Societies". I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am very hesitant about giving out rights/services based on ethnicity. <br /> <br /> Why do I support First Peoples' rights then? Because they are indigenous people, and no matter how distinct from France Canada's francophone peoples have become, they are not indigenous to this land. That would be like saying that Afrikaaners are indigenous to South Africa because the English came after them, and because they are different from their Dutch ancestors.<br /> <br /> None of this means that francophones shouldn't have the right to protect their language and cultures, just that they shouldn't be recognised as a special ethnic group in Canada. Afterall, if we started to segregate our society based on which peoples got here first, then we'd have an ethnic hierarchy in place. I'm sure no reasonable person is advocating that.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] You misunderstand me gaulois, I did not mean to suggest that I didn't support recognition of our French nations as nations. I do, however, have some problems with calling them "Second Nations" especially in areas where the French did not settle until after the English or other groups.<br /> [/quote]<br /> Semantics stuff? Francophones were here coast to coast way back before other european groups. I was in fact suprised to find out that there was a majority of francos (amongst other Western nations groups) although tiny in mid 19th century on the Coast. They apparently had experience dealing with First Nations and were most useful (along with the Catholic Church) to help settle the BC colony. See "Présence Francophone à Victoria" published in 1991 (Laplante Agnew editions)by Laurette Agnew, Francois Aubert, Gérald Moreau, Gérald Ricard, Marie Robillard, Antoinette Vaucher and Jean-Paul Vinay.<br /> [QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> The term "Second Nation" has many ethnic connotations, and I'm conderned that perhpas non-French francophones would be left out simply because of their ancestry. <br /> [/quote]<br /> I am not sure what is wrong with ethnic connotations when they are an integral part of who you are, what is the make-up of the country, etc... Denying legitimate "ethnic connotations" feed allienation. By the same token, are non-English anglophones left out? Denying francophone immigration to the francophone identity of this country undermines the existing francophone identity of this country. You would be amazed to find out how much Heritage Canada has done to decimate francophone identities across this country, not only Quebec, but Acadie and l'Ouest. <br /> [QUOTE BY= lesouris]<br /> I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am very hesitant about giving out rights/services based on ethnicity.<br /> [/quote]<br /> Canadians have already done this by allowing a national broadcaster to operate in French from coast to coast, or Heritage Canada to look after the francophonie minorities spanning from coast to coast. I do agree that there are however many severe issues with the current system. <br /> [quote]<br /> Why do I support First Peoples' rights then? Because they are indigenous people, and no matter how distinct from France Canada's francophone peoples have become, they are not indigenous to this land. That would be like saying that Afrikaaners are indigenous to South Africa because the English came after them, and because they are different from their Dutch ancestors.<br /> [/quote]<br /> The French People came in and became indigeneous to this land by integrating with the First Nations people, learning their ways, languages, customs, metissing, living their lifestyle, trading in with fairness, etc... I am not aware that the Afrikaaners or the Brits did this. Sure there were some colonial abuses from the French but they were small in comparison to the ones committed by the Brits. The Irish even sided with the French in front of these abuses.<br /> [quote]<br /> None of this means that francophones shouldn't have the right to protect their language and cultures, just that they shouldn't be recognised as a special ethnic group in Canada. Afterall, if we started to segregate our society based on which peoples got here first, then we'd have an ethnic hierarchy in place. I'm sure no reasonable person is advocating that.[/QUOTE]<br /> I believe there is in fact an "ethnic hierarchy" but would rather call it an ecosystem where participants understand an equilibrium and works from it in a mutually beneficial way without trying to squash down the group that has the smallest demography. Bill 101 was absolutely necessary to the survival of French on this continent by reestablishing a linguistic majority. The ROC has been vehemently opposed to it as well as the recognition of this "status particulier", Meech and so on. So the majority of Francophones in Canada advocates such an "ethnic hierarchy" and are therefore not reasonable? Hmmm... At one point one needs to agree to disagree and parts away consequently.<br /> <br /> On the basis of your comments, I can only conclude that there is no need for Le Manifeste du Canard since there are "only ducks" and not "ducks and canards" in the ROC. Le Canard believes that there is a need for something in the ROC to ensure a real survival of francophone minorities on this continent. It will obviously not be Bill 101. What is it then if not a Manifeste of some sort?

[fleur-de-lys]

Moi aussi je m'excuse d'être hors sujet Gaulois, je ne fais que répondre.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Let's not forget the epidemics introduced (freely offered) by the European newcomers, which devastated the aboriginal population[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> The French didn't do an Amerindian genocide;<br /> <br /> The British exterminated en autre the Hurons because they were allied with the french during the Battle of the Plains of Abraham.<br /> <br /> the Americans killed a lot of after they purchased Louisiana (not just the State, the territory <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Frank_bond_1912_louisiana_and_the_louisiana_purchase.jpg">here</a> ) from Napoleon in 1803.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> (BTW, are you a smoker?)<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> I smoke up.<br /> <br /> Do you know why Tobacco is so popular and we do not roll our cigarettes anymore ? After WW2, it was taking less than 48 hours to transform a factory of bullets into factory which makes cigarettes.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]<br /> Additionally, do you believe natives enjoyed having Jesuits force feed them the 'truth', simply because they were savages and needed to be 'saved'? Do you fathom the damaging irreparable effect this kind of behavior had upon the native's culture, language, and religious beliefs?<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> I'm atheist so I agree with you, what the Jesuits did was wrong.

[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE de Marcus]</b> Do you fathom the damaging irreparable effect [the Jesuits’] behavior had upon the natives’ culture, language, and religious beliefs?<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Il y avait des aspects des cultures indigènes, par ex. le traitement des ennemis capturés (comme l’abattage rituel du Père de Brébeuf), qui ont consterné même les soldats européens endurcis. Les jésuites ont appris des langues indigènes — par ex. le dictionnaire français/abénaquis du Père Aubéry. Certainement au XVIIe siècle, leur but était de les convertir en catholicisme !<br /> <br /> [QUOTE de fleur-de-lys]</b> The British exterminated en autre the Hurons because they were allied with the french during the Battle of the Plains of Abraham.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Ce n’est pas vrai. Les Hurons, comme une nation, ont été exterminés (ou absorbés) en 1649 par les Iroquois.<br /> <br /> OK, back on-topic …<br /> <br /> [QUOTE de gaulois]</b> I believe there is in fact an “ethnic hierarchy” but would rather call it an ecosystem where participants understand an equilibrium and work from it in a mutually beneficial way without trying to squash down the group that has the smallest demography.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Mais où devrait être le point d’appui pour l’équilibre ?

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Brother Jonathan] Mais où devrait être le point d’appui pour l’équilibre ?[/QUOTE]<br /> Je fais confiance à la bonne volonté des gens de part et d'autre lorsque les médias font leur job et les porte-parole ne sont pas sujet au graissage de tartine.

[Marcus]

[QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]The French didn't do an Amerindian genocide;[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]The British exterminated en autre the Hurons because they were allied with the french during the Battle of the Plains of Abraham.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= fleur-de-lys]<b>I smoke up.</b>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> As the saying goes...'Nuff said.