[N Say]

Are you comparing the attitudes of french-speaking Quebecers towards the anglos with the attitudes of "unilingual dogs" like the British, Americans, Romans, etc toawrds others? I think that's what this is about.

[michou]

Cette conception d'impérialisme Québécois est tout à fait loufoque et le Gaulois le renie lui-même au dernier paragraphe en accusant les Québécois ne ne pas s'occuper des francophones hors-Québec. <br /> <br />Mais pourquoi donc les Québécois devraient en faire plus pour les Francophones Hors Québec qu'ils n'en ont déjà fait ? Le Québec défend le droit à la francophonie depuis des décennies sur toutes les tribunes qu'elle trouve sur son chemin. <br />Si jamais les communautés culturelles francophones hors-Québec devaient un jour s'éteindre, il ne faudra pas pointer le Québec du doigt. Le Canada aura à sonder son âme d'Anglos ce jour-là. <br /> <br />Le fait français est unique en son genre en Amérique. Que sept millions de femmes et d'hommes aient décidé de protéger leur langue, leur culture et leur réalité en agace encore plusieurs aujourd'hui. <br />Pourquoi ce mépris du fait français en Amérique ? <br />Se qualifier de différent n'est pas un aveu d'un complexe de supériorité.

[N Say]

Just because the french-speakers in Quebec want to protect their language & culture doesn't mean that they want to stop people from speaking english. It would be like a government protecting Canadian culture. That doesn't mean we have to limit the amount of foreign culture. I think if if either side (english/french) tries to keep the other side "down" it just creates tensions & makes us weaker.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= N Say] Are you comparing the attitudes of french-speaking Quebecers towards the anglos with the attitudes of "unilingual dogs" like the British, Americans, Romans, etc toawrds others? I think that's what this is about.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It was not limited to attitudes toward anglos. Also toward the francos that are not as pure-laine as they are. I would suggest to broaden the discussion away from "Quebec" and focus on the fact that every empire has done so, and generally with disastrous results. I don't think it is the People that do this but just the Administrators of the Empire. They tend to typically not care a whole lot about impact on People.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= michou] Cette conception d'impérialisme Québécois est tout à fait loufoque et le Gaulois le renie lui-même au dernier paragraphe en accusant les Québécois ne ne pas s'occuper des francophones hors-Québec. <br /> <br />Pourquoi ce mépris du fait français en Amérique ? <br />Se qualifier de différent n'est pas un aveu d'un complexe de supériorité. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Ce que je signale, c'est que certains Québécois devraient davantage dialoguer avec ceux hors-Québec avant de nous exporter votre vue de la francophonie et de la culture. Ell fonctionne peut-être au Québec mais ne fonctionne pas hors-Québec. <br /> <br />Je ne crois vraiment pas que vous compreniez les problèmes que vous nous créez en parlant continuellement de séparation et ce que vous allez résoudre. Oublions les problèmes que les Anglais nous créent. Vivre hors-Québec est un choix que nous avons fait après tout et nos sommes capables de vivre avec les contraintes de l'environnement anglo. Je ne suis définitivement pas prêt à me ghettoiser en français pour vivre hors-Québec. Et souvent je crois c'est ce que certains Québécois voudraient que je fasse. Cela n'a pas fonctionné pour les anglos au Québec et ne fonctionnera pas pour les francos hors-Québec. Et qui méprise qui dans les situations d'impérialisme? Je suis essentiellement Gaulois et ne me ferai pas assimiler par les Barbares ou les Romains. Cela semble fatiguer certains Québécois que je puisse toujours m'exprimer en français après 25 ans dans l'Ouest.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] [QUOTE BY= N Say] Are you comparing the attitudes of french-speaking Quebecers towards the anglos with the attitudes of "unilingual dogs" like the British, Americans, Romans, etc toawrds others? I think that's what this is about.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It was not limited to attitudes toward anglos. Also toward the francos that are not as pure-laine as they are. I would suggest to broaden the discussion away from "Quebec" and focus on the fact that every empire has done so, and generally with disastrous results. I don't think it is the People that do this but just the Administrators of the Empire. They tend to typically not care a whole lot about impact on People.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />In all my life as a Québécoise, I have NEVER come across or heard any mention of discrimination against Francophones outside Québec. I have absolutely no idea where this comes from. <br />As for that "pure-laine" comment, you are many years behind in your assessment of Québec society. This comment is nothing more than Québec slurring and bashing. <br /> <br />If you really care to know about Québec nationalism, I recommend you get informed where there is no taint of racial prejudices. Québec nationalism has nothing to do with racial purity. <br /><a href="http://agora.qc.ca/liens/kymlicka.html">Quebec: a modern, pluralist, distinct society <br /></a> <br /> <br /> <br />Excerpt: <br /> <br /><i>Quebec accepts immigrants from all over the world: it has roughly the same per capita rate of immigration as the United States. Control over immigration is one of the powers Quebec nationalist have sought and gained, and the province administers its own immigration program, actively recruiting immigrants, most of whom are nonwhite. These immigrants are not only granted citizenship under relatively easy terms, but are encouraged by Quebec's own "interculturalism" policy to interact with the members of other ethnic groups, to share their cultural heritage, and to participate in common public institutions. <br /> <br /> (Indeed, the level of acceptance of interracial marriage is considerably higher in Quebec than in the United States.) Far from trying to preserve some sort of racial purity, Quebec nationalists are actively seeking people of other races, cultures, and faiths to join them, integrate with them, intermarry with them, and jointly help build a modern, pluralist, distinct (French-speaking) society in Quebec. <br /> <br />Quebec is not unique in this. Catalan and Scottish nationalisms are also postethnic. <br /> <br />And the clear trend throughout most Western democracies is toward a more open and non racial definition of minority nationalism. In the case of Quebec, for example, the overwhelming majority of Quebecers forty years ago believed that to be a true Quebecois one had to be descended from the original French settlers; today, fewer than 20 percent accept this view. </i> <br /> <br /> <br />

[gaulois]

Michou's view of modern Québec sounds a lot like the one of Canada. The only difference is who has got the demographics majority.

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] Michou's view of modern Québec sounds a lot like the one of Canada. The only difference is who has got the demographics majority.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />When you wrote of a demographic majority, you should have emphasized ... in North America. <br />The more reasons to protect and care for one's identity, non ? What is wrong with that ? <br />In Italy, Italians speak and live as italians. In Germany, Germans do the same in german. Why couldn't Québécers have the liberty to do the same in Québec and be masters in their own home ?

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= michou] <br />In all my life as a Québécoise, I have NEVER come across or heard any mention of discrimination against Francophones outside Québec. I have absolutely no idea where this comes from. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I have heard many times from many Québécois that francophonie hors-Québec is mainly a "write off" given the current transgeneration assimilation rate and therefore we should not even worry about it. If you have not heard this, we must definitely live in two very different worlds or solitudes. I have personally experienced far more aggravation from francos despising me for living in relative harmony with my anglo. american or asian friends than from anglos treating me as a frog. Most francos end up disconnecting entirely from the francos after these types of put off. I have myself not given up and have tried working the bridge for quite some times now. Vive le Canada seems a worthy place to reestablish communications. Préférablement en français. <br /> <br />Je suis d'accord que le danger d'assimilation est extrêmement grave et pourrait justifier l'attitude de plusieurs au Québec ou hors Québec à simplement abandonner. <br />

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= michou] Why couldn't Québécers have the liberty to do the same in Québec and be masters in their own home ?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Mais ne le sont-ils pas déjà??? Que veux-tu de plus que vous n'avez pas déjà. Quels problèmes essaies-tu vraiment de résoudre? Et quels problèmes penses-tu que tu vas créer en devenant souverain? Sois très spécifique et pratico-pratique SVP. Penses à ce qui s'est passé en Yougoslavie et réalises que beaucoup de ces gens vivent maintenant au Canada émerveillés de ce que notre pays nous permet. <br /> <br />Remplacer une bureaucratie par une autre ne me semble pas pertinent.

[whelan costen]

Michou, Quebers are already master in their own homes. What truly more can you have by calling yourselves a country? What truly will be the benefit to this independance you seek? We know that Quebec will lose land, resources, security and will be forced to pay debts, pay for new police services, will not have the benefit of the Federal Social programs and therefore would have to maintain all hospitals, pensions etc on their own, this would increase taxes to the citizens. How would all of this make it better ? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'> <br /> <br />For example I am the master of my own home, I make the rules; but I live within a community which shares the cost for roads, police force, hospital services, parks, etc. that my family enjoys. If I say I wish to be independant and encircle my family land with a security fence and will maintain my own roads within the boundaries, pay for doctors services to come in, etc etc. then I increase my costs but in no way have a better way of life; but I decide when my road is maintained. So I increase my costs all so that I can decide independantly on something that I am not opposed to doing for the sake of saying 'I am in control'. Seems rather short sighted to me? <br /> <br />I just can't understand the reasoning....help

[michou]

First of all I'm really sick and tired of Canadians comparing Québec's sovereignty as a wish to barricade themselves within their territory. It is simplistic in its nature and false in its presumptions. I've already said it more than once here and I will say it again. Québec is an open, modern and pluralistic society and it will only become more so once its shackles are removed. <br /> <br />How would you or any Canadians feel about sending your taxes to Washington instead of Ottawa ? How would Canadians take to having Americans decide on their behalf on the how, when and for what it will be spent on, which roads will be maintained, which medical services will be offered, which cultural events will be subsidized, which foreign policies will be taken in their names etc...? <br />Do you think this idea would please Canadians ? <br />And why ever not ? <br />Americans would be flabbergasted at the insult and come back whining: "Don't you want to be a part of the greatest nation on earth, the cradle of western democracy, the mightiest hyperpower on the face of the earth...we are number ONE after all and we can protect you from any foe (real or imagined) !!!" <br /> <br />Can Canadians understand once and for all that QUÉBEC IS A DISTINCT NATION ? Québécers are Québécers. They are not Canadians, not Americans, not French, not German. I'm also sick and tired of being talked down to by well-intentioned Canadians who think Québécers need protection or help in managing their lives and communities. Once again, Québécers CAN DO IT ALONE and they have the maturity and means to succeed in controlling and managing their OWN affairs. <br /> <br />Liberty is not solely a question of budgets and finances either. It is about one's identity and one's place in the world. Québécers ARE NOT Canadians. How many times do I have to write it down before those of you who say you want to understand, REALLY understand ? <br />Maybe if I wrote "Canadians ARE NOT Americans", would that help your understanding of why separation has been an issue for so long in Québec and still is today ? <br /> <br />Do Canadians despise Americans because they're not Canadians like they are ? No. Do the French hate the Germans because they are German and not French ? No. <br />Do Canadians hate Québécers because they do not think of themselves as Canadians ? I think so. <br /> <br />So Whelan, in response to your query about the reasoning behind Québec's wish for sovereignty, here is a simple exercise you can try in your spare time: <br />Just repeat this simple sentence a few hundred times a day and understanding should set in naturally. <br /><i>Canadians are not Americans just as Québécers are not Canadians</i>

[whelan costen]

Well Michou your frustration with Canadians is becoming very strong and I appreciate what you are saying. The fact is I totally disagree and when you say who are you to say what is good for Quebec you insult my intelligence and my concern for Canada. You are expressing your opinion, I am expressing mine. <br /> <br />One- Canadians have never been Americans; Quebecers are Canadians. That is not a wish that is a fact. Your vision of history is not quite the same as mine, as I know that Quebec was a part of Confederation, whether you feel they entered the decision under duress or not, you were not there and neither was I; but it did happen. So Canada is not know taking over Quebec. Quebec has enjoyed the benefit of being Canadian as all provinces do; you may consider it immature for Canadians to be sentimental about Quebec, or that we don't know what we are talking about; but I would be just as passionate about any province that follows a leader towards a new country. <br /> <br />You keep saying that we don't get it, Quebec is a nation, but that isn't a fact. It is a province, that is a fact. The question how many times do you have to say it, is mute, you can't say it and assume it makes it true. You must back up your argument with facts if you want to be beleived. <br /> <br />We do have a right to ask, how will Quebec's nationhood affect the rest of Canada, we have the right to try to understand what will happen, not go blindly into a agreement as we did with Free Trade etc. assuming it will all work out. We have a duty to our children and to those who died for this country. Please don't tell me that all soldiers died in vain, because that is not so. If our brave men and women did not fight in world war II, we would have been taken over by the Germans and we would all be speaking German under a Nazi regime. <br /> <br />It isn't just about freedom, and the fact that you believe you are a mature nation capable of protecting, defending and supporting yourselves, while that is admirable, you must have some research to support this hypothesis. You must consider the results of such a decision and to say that Canada will want to allow this in a peaceful manner may be true, but you will lose land, resources, and others within Quebec will be affected by such a decision. There are people within Quebec who are Canadians and wish to remain so, they too have a history, they are also ancestors of the first Canadians. So how will you deal with these issues. <br /> <br />This is not about me being arrogant or talking down to you, I am a Canadian, 5th generation, it is my country and I have a right to ask these questions, just as you have the right to express your views.

[michou]

Whelan, all you are saying is that once conquered, always conquered. Deal with it. <br /> <br />Sorry, but it doesn't wash down. <br /> <br />My frustrations are only with some Canadians. I have many Canadians friends, my ex is an anglo and so is my current boyfriend. So how's that for frustrations ! <br /> <br />Throughout human history, NEVER have national governments, boundaries, territories, allegiances or foes remained stable and fixed. That is an undeniable fact. <br /> <br />It is not boundaries, anthems nor flags that make a nation. People change, things happen and their national reflections change and adapt with them. That is how man lives and it will never change. <br /> <br />Those who best survive in this everchanging world have always been those who can handle change best. That is the basis on which the theory of evolution stands. Societies live under the same rule. Another undeniable fact. It will be up to the people of Québec to determine if they deserve a nation. Many will want to decide for them and some of them will try but really, they can’t. That is why the independance movement has never gone away and won’t. <br /> <br />Calling Québec a province does not make it one. A name by any other name is just a name. Like any other nation on earth, Canada has changed, from a place once inhabited by a few thousand French colonizers and natives into what it is today. Much has happened between then and now and much more is yet to come. So it is with life. <br />

[Calumny]

I've really enjoyed reading your stuff michou. <br /> <br />I have to point out that that at this time many Quebec residents do obviously consider themselves Canadians. And for 'real world' legal purposes, Quebec is a province of Canada, although this may change in time. This isn't something I feel any need to believe for personal reasons, it's just what most of the world would accept as fact. <br /> <br />I've never met a Canadian who has expressed hatred towards Quebecois, whether in the light of day or in their cups at night. I have met Canadians who are frustrated with what they perceive as the Quebec 'issue' for the reasons I mentioned in a different thread. <br /> <br />I should also point out that your comments concerning evolution could be applied to the French situation in Quebec. One could argue that the maintenance of the French language and culture within a continent where the business language is English (and in the future may be Spanish) may in itself be a futile battle against what others could see as evolutionary inevitability. <br /> <br />Hopefully this will not prove the case. <br /> <br />As previously indicated, I believe that if most Quebec residents believe Quebec should be a nation, Canada should support those aspirations. For my previously stated reasons, I hope that if this occurs, it is successful for all involved. <br /> <br />