[Dr Caleb]

This is me, pounding my forehead into a wall, just so I can appreciate the lack of pain when I stop.<br />

[Marcarc]

Whatever floats your boat dude.

[Calumny]

Well, guess nothing, except some of the nicknames, changes around here.<br /> <br /> Seems like the best thing Sue could do for the cause of Canadian sovereignty, or at least save it from embarassment, would be shut down the forums, cut off the comment functionality and go with a few writers that could produce relevant, to the Vive mission statement, articles from time to time. <br /> <br /> What people don't seem to get is that Vive will never be seen as a 'respected hub of civic nationalist information, theory, community, and activism' so long as site users are allowed to promote their personal, non-Vive mission related agendas and indulge in discussions demonstrating more of a Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance Phaedrus-like descent into madness or the poster's having the price of a two-four than any sort of coherent, value-added (to the Vive mission) sharing of viewpoints and ideas.<br /> <br /> I kind of hoped things would improve after the anon troll types were dispensed with but...that's just me, ever the optimist.<br /> <br /> Anyway, why should I care...not my site. You folks have fun.<br /> <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'>

[Diogenes]

With all due respect and without Prejudice <br /> <br /> Marcarc, My poor logic starved brother, You can run but you cannot hide from a monstrous truth,<br /> You can close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears and stamp your feet like the si-com characters do (therefore becoming a sit-com character ) an whine till the cows come home “I can’t hear you” (repeat phrase using multiple tones) <br /> <br /> Your assertion: “THis wasn't a study from a historical publication or a history of zionism, this was a fellow who made an out and out false and inflammatory statement saying that the zionists were responsible for the holocaust. Not only is it false, but its inflammatory, and again, FAR more false and inflammatory than the article that Susan pulled.” <br /> Truth: "If I am asked, "Could you give from the UJA moneys to rescue Jews, 'I say, NO! and I say again NO!"<br /> <br /> <br /> Izaak Greenbaum -- head of Jewish Agency Rescue Committee<br /> February 18, 1943<br /> <br /> Addressed to the Zionist Executive Council<br /> <br /> Truth: "One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland"<br /> ....Izaak Greenbaum<br /> Truth: Chaim Weizmann, the first president of Israel, made this Zionist policy very explicit:<br /> The hopes of Europe’s six million Jews are centered on emigration. I was asked: “Can you bring six million Jews to Palestine?” I replied, “No.” ... From the depths of the tragedy I want to save ... young people [for Palestine]. The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in a cruel world ... Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it<br /> Chaim Weizmann reporting to the Zionist Congress in 1937 on his testimony before the Peel Commission in London, July 1937. Cited in Yahya, p. 55.<br /> <br /> Truth: As late as 1943, while the Jews of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine.<br /> <br /> This is the same Rabbi Wise who, in 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American Jewish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable Jews to find refuge. He stated:<br /> <br /> "It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading Jewish organizations met in conference ... It was decided that no Jewish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws."<br /> <br /> TRUTH: ANTI-SEMITISM BY POLITICAL ZIONISM<br /> Although Zionists and others dispute it, the undeniable fact is that revolutionary secular and apostate elements in the Jewish community in Europe contributed greatly to hostility towards Jews after World War I. This aroused hatred of Jews in general among many non-Jews. While a prisoner in 1924 in the fortress of Lansberg on the River Lech, Hitler wrote his Mein Kampf. When he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, he was assisted by Goebbels, Roseberg and Streicher. From them came the declarations, “The Jews of Germany caused the defeat of Germany in the 1914-1918 war; the Jews of Germany were responsible for the terrible conditions in Germany that followed the war; the Jews of Germany are foreigners and they wish to remain foreigners; they have no loyalty to the country of their birth; they are not human; they are filthy dogs; they have no right to intrude into Germany’s affairs; there are too many Jews in Germany.<br /> As far as Zionism is concerned, the founder of Zionism and apostate, Theodor Herzl, sought to intensify hatred of the Jew in order to enhance the cause of political Zionism. Here are some of his “pearls”:<br /> “It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)<br /> Additional words from the vivid imagination of this dreamer, from p. 68 of Part I of his Diary.<br /> So anti-Semitism, which is a deeply imbedded force in the subconscious mind of the masses, will not harm the Jews. I actually find it to be advantageous to building the Jewish character, education by the masses that will lead to assimilation. This education can only happen through suffering, and the Jews will adapt.<br /> <br /> <br /> This, that which follows is the pivotal point of this thread:. There is ignorance and WILLFULL ignorance. That is to say the distinction between the is while the former means lack of knowledge the latter defines the choice of wilfulness <br /> Marcarc has chosen the latter position and then out of that position acted, or threatened to act, in a threatening (hateful) manner. <br /> <br /> http://www.hermes-press.com/Perennial_Tradition/ignorance.htm <br /> <br /> VANQUISHING IGNORANCE BY NORMAN D. LIVERGOOD<br /> The hideous visage of evil is clearly perceptible in our time. Behind it lurks the perpetual conspiracy of ignorance, threatening to overwhelm all noble elements of human culture. At present, the flood of ignorance endangers the very foundations of civilization. <br /> <br /> Ignorance Kills<br /> Ignorance is not merely the lack of knowledge, but self-destructive turning away from truth in all areas of life. Persons develop a taste for ignorance, the predisposition to embrace erroneous beliefs based on presumption or mere authority. The ignorant person believes he knows what he actually doesn't know; he becomes delusional. He is deranged.<br /> <br /> WE FIND IT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND HOW PEOPLE TODAY DELIBERATELY REFUSE TO LOOK AT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE WORLD, BELIEVING THE LIES AND DISTORTIONS THEIR LEADERS TELL THEM. WITH A STRAIGHT FACE, POLITICAL, ECONOMIC, RELIGIOUS, AND MEDIA FIGURES TELL THE PEOPLE THAT BLACK IS WHITE, WAR IS PEACE, LIES ARE TRUTHS, JOBLESSNESS IS ECONOMIC RECOVERY, IGNORANCE IS INTELLIGENCE.<br /> <br /> The Nature of Ignorance<br /> THE WORST FEATURE OF IGNORANCE, PLATO TELLS US, IS SELF-SATISFACTION. "FOR HEREIN IS THE EVIL OF IGNORANCE, THAT HE WHO IS NEITHER GOOD NOR WISE IS NEVERTHELESS SATISFIED WITH HIMSELF: HE HAS NO DESIRE FOR THAT OF WHICH HE FEELS NO WANT." (SYMPOSIUM)<br /> <br /> SELF-LOVE, PLATO RECOGNIZES, SEES ITS OWN IGNORANCE AS WISDOM; IT SEEKS NO CURE, "THE SOUL WALLOWING IN THE MIRE OF EVERY SORT OF IGNORANCE AND BY REASON OF LUST BECOMES THE PRINCIPAL ACCOMPLICE IN HER OWN CAPTIVITY." (PHAEDO) IT WILL NOT LET A MORE COMPETENT PERSON PERFORM WHAT HE CAN. IGNORANCE CAN ONLY BE OVERCOME BY AN OUTSIDE FORCE OF TRUE WISDOM.<br /> <br /> PLATO DESCRIBES IGNORANCE AS THE "GREATEST OF DISEASES" AND SAYS THAT "THE EXCESSIVE LOVE OF SELF IS IN REALITY THE SOURCE IN EACH MAN OF ALL OFFENCES; FOR THE LOVER IS BLINDED ABOUT THE BELOVED, SO THAT HE JUDGES WRONGLY OF THE JUST, THE GOOD, AND THE HONORABLE, AND THINKS THAT HE OUGHT ALWAYS TO PREFER HIMSELF TO THE TRUTH." (PHAEDO)<br /> <br /> My assertions follow-<br /> By acceptable standard of those who love knowledge (philosophy) my adversary on this thread, Mararc, fits description of an ignorant being in that he poses a danger, not to himself but rather to those he has no agreement with, I have been and still am, a target of his ignorance. There appears to be nothing to be done that will cause this pitiful individual, Marcarc, to examine his stance for the veracity* it lacks.<br /> My options are to recognise this being, Marcarc to be of diminish capacity, wilfully ignorant and accept his demeanour for that which it is, I might under the mental health act have him examined for psychiatric treatment and incarcerated <br /> <br /> * http://www.thefreedictionary.com/veracity <br /> <br />

[Diogenes]

<br /> unfettered free thought is the right spot anf this is the right time to respond to both Marcarc and Calumny<br /> <br /> For educational and research use only: <br /> <br /> I know a ditty nutty as a fruitcake Goofy as a goon and silly as a loon Some call it pretty others call it crazy but they all sing this tune: Mairzy Doats And Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Yes! Mairzy doats And Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? If the words sound queer, and funny to your ear, a little bit jumbled and jivey, Sing "Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy" Oh! Mairzy Doats and Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you - oo? A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?*<br /> <br /> makes as much sense as I can muster <br /> <br /> * http://www.johnnymercer.com/FAQ/Mares%20eat%20oats.htm<br /> <br />

[Diogenes]

[QUOTE BY= Diogenes] <br /> unfettered free thought is the right spot anf this is the right time to respond to both Marcarc and Calumny<br /> <br /> For educational and research use only: <br /> <br /> I know a ditty nutty as a fruitcake Goofy as a goon and silly as a loon Some call it pretty others call it crazy but they all sing this tune: Mairzy Doats And Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? Yes! Mairzy doats And Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you? If the words sound queer, and funny to your ear, a little bit jumbled and jivey, Sing "Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy" Oh! Mairzy Doats and Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you - oo? A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?*<br /> <br /> makes as much sense as I can muster under the present circumstances <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'> <br /> <br /> * http://www.johnnymercer.com/FAQ/Mares%20eat%20oats.htm<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]

[Calumny]

My point exactly. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

[Diogenes]

Then its all good?<br /> Cause I miss your views<br />

[Calumny]

No problems here.<br /> <br /> While I don't contribute much any more, I do take the ideas behind the Vive mission quite seriously, particularly as concerns democracy. <br /> <br /> As I've rambled on about before, I think it's important that visitors to the site realize these ideas belong to them as much as any Vive member, regardless of their individual politics and beliefs. So, I've never wanted the site to at first glance give the impression that we who purport to support those ideas are fringe element lunatics, argumentative hate-filled fanatics or starry eyed dreamers without a foot in the real world, as some of our former anons would have us portrayed.<br /> <br /> On the 'hate speech' issue, the determination of whether a 'hate', or any other, crime has been committed is in the hands of the court, not me, you, Marcarc, Sue, assorted bloggers or the B'nai Brith. <br /> <br /> In this regard, the B'nai Brith 'hate crime' reporting form is somewhat misleading title-wise as in fact the best anyone can do in this regard is report that they've been a victim of a crime that may be a hate crime, e.g., punched in the nose because of my *fill in the blank' religion as opposed to punched in the nose because I'm an obnoxious boob who also happens to be of the 'fill in the blank' religion.<br /> <br /> In respect of the 'hate speech' laws in section 318/319 of the Canadian Criminal Code, I'd like to offer an alternative to rearguard's view.<br /> <br /> Firstly, I don't believe either is lengthy or difficult to understand intent-wise.<br /> <br /> I'd suggest the provision indicating only the AG can consent to proceeding with charges under these sections indicates only that these charges are not intended to be used lightly, i.e., not intended to be laid by a junior crown counsel on the basis of someone feeling themselves to be a 'hate crime' victim because they weren't invited to a birthday party.<br /> <br /> I'd guess one of the reasons the latitude is fairly broad is because judges must be allowed the discretion to determine whether conviction under these sections is truly warranted on a case by case basis. If the law was more specific, e.g., identifying the spray painting of a swastika on a synagogue as an action to be judged a 'hate crime', the law could then not differentiate between a thirteen year old who did this on a dare without fully understanding the gravity of the situation and a hard-core neo-nazi who did the same fully understanding what they were doing, so both would be treated the same regardless of whether this was appropriate (not that the AG would ever let the first case get to court under 319 anyway).<br /> <br /> Also, I'd suspect that if the law were more specific at to what constitutes a 'hate crime' it would be necessary to constantly amend the sections every time a new type of 'hate-crime' emerged and potentially allow those who committed a 'hate crime' not specifically recognized by statute to get off the hook.<br /> <br /> Contrary to what some may believe, and ill-thought election promises intended to buy votes aside, most legislation is subject to intense scrutiny, study, debate, discussion, and review, on in some scenarios a clause by clause basis, by Parliament and Parliamentary Committees, the Senate, public servants and often, through consultation, the public prior to being enacted. <br /> <br /> This may not result in legislation that always works in the desired manner and doesn't produce unintended or undesirable consequences however, it generally does result in documentation outlining the thinking behind the legislation and associated discussion, consultation, review etc.<br /> <br /> Like this, for example:<br /> <br /> http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/sp/2005/doc_31480.html<br /> <br /> I think this speech gives a pretty good idea of the intended hate speech law target, i.e., not the thug who whacks a gay over the head because he's gay, as opposed to hitting him over the head as a prelude to theft, as either way the thug is headed up the river. The laws are directed towards those who use words to incite hatred or dehumanize an individual based on their race, religion, etc., because otherwise there's nothing to prevent or punish this 'my right of free speech' behaviour. <br /> <br /> As concerns 'unfettered free speech', we all wear 'fetters' as a condition of living in society because there will always be behaviours that most in society deem undesirable, e.g., shooting anyone who pisses us off. <br /> <br /> No matter how you cut it, 'hate speech' exists only to promote 'hatred' and as such serves no legitimate purpose that would support its tolerance in any society. <br /> <br /> I recognize there are different views in this regard and am simply stating my own. <br /> <br /> Like any law, and perhaps more than most, 'hate speech' laws need to be closely monitored by society to ensure these aren't applied for purposes other than which they were designed, e.g., to stifle legitimate concerns about the policies followed by other nations, to stifle concerns about the negative impact of specific 'cultural values' on Canadian society as a whole, etc.<br /> <br /> But, to date I haven't heard of anyone charged or convicted under 318/319 of the criminal code for expressing legitimate concerns or views that might not be music to the ears for some but have nothing to do with 'hating' anyone or suggesting that person be included in a campaign of genocide. <br /> <br /> The fact is, anyone can use the law as a 'threat', e.g., I can contact television stations and threaten them with all sorts of legal action if they don't stop showing commercials portraying married white men as dopey dupes of their wives. However, carrying through without getting laughed out of court, if I even get there, is quite another matter.<br /> <br /> I'll want to make some general comments about web research.<br /> <br /> I could have ten websites up and running in about day representing myself as being anybody I wanted to be, e.g., "Conservative Working Beothuks Against Shiftless Beothuk Welfare Parasites" (note my clever use of a group that can't accuse me of hate speech) and interlinking to one another as 'reputable' back up sources for whatever yarn I chose to weave. <br /> <br /> My indicated Beothuk status would legitimize whatever comments I had about welfare sucking Beothuks in some visitors' eyes because after all, I'm one of 'them' myself so everything I say must be true (based on insider knowledge). <br /> <br /> In general I'm a bit dubious about internet 'facts' I can't verify against the original 'source' and sites that in truth may not be what they purport to be.<br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

I'm still skipping over Dio's posts, so I'm not sure whether Calumny's post is a response to something or not. I share the same thoughts about internet 'facts'.<br /> <br /> However, keep in mind that Zundel was not held under hate speech charges, he was held under TERRORIST charges while some other country could cook up some laws to charge him with. When the law permits ANYONE of being charged under such conditions, then its not exactly moot. I suspect the reason that Dio would think 'tattling' was a threat is because the CJC would act informally of the law. That's a little paranoid, but not out of line. IF they knew who you were they may pull a Paul Fromm on you. They may make it 'public' and simply wait for other goons to do any dirty work. Sort of the Salmon Rushdie mode of justice.<br /> <br /> However, it is just one comment on one board, and it wasn't even Dio's quote, so paranoia there is unwarranted. On the bigger issue, when dealing with jewish groups there is the same misunderstanding. Most of these groups exist for good reason, jews have a GOOD reason to be insular and, dare I say, paranoid. The history is there to prove it. So when some posters claim that they are no different than any other religion, ideology, or lobby group, thats not true. <br /> <br /> That of course doesn't mean you kowtow to them. But like I said, you don't need to go on for pages and hours about zionist culpability in the holocaust in order to challenge Israeli policies or heavy handed editorial policies. And to those that do I think it DOES make motives suspect. There is no doubt that as rearguard says, there is a risk in just being public. Just mentioning Israel is likely to get you into a fistfight in the wrong place, and Whelan and others are right about censorship, in fact the far scariest is normative censorship which isn't even done by the state. <br /> <br /> That's the great thing about forums, is at least its a place for some dialogue, personally I'm even rethinkin g going through Dio's posts because as they say, the crazier things sound, the more they should be listened to. However, if he didn't outright SCARE me perhaps I'd be more likely to read.<br /> <br /> But what vive is considered to be is another question. I go ages without looking at the forums, I'll sometimes look at the titles, but as you say, it is the articles that are most beneficial. For craziness, I look at what passes for news, the House, mainstream pop culture, literature and I often think "you don't get any crazier than this". That a girl I know who was biking home had to leave at such and such a time so she could get home to watch "24" has me looking at her like a certified lunatic. At least Dio's passion has some kind of relevant aim to it, as did Ed Bakers. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />

[Calumny]

Web forums, and most other parts of life, would be better places if we could park our egos at the front door.<br /> <br /> I've pretty stopped contributing to forums because the only reason I started was in the hope that something I had to say might be helpful to others and could be used, if not perhaps by me, to generate some action on the 'sovereignty' and democratic issues that concern us.<br /> <br /> I still think the web and web forums could be great tools to discuss various topics and develop strategies for action with others with similar views who you'd otherwise never meet. At least they're good for letting you know you aren't the 'only person who thinks these thoughts', i.e., a 'nut'.<br /> <br /> However, my experience has been that most (not talking about Vive here) forums seem dominated primarily by those interested in one-upmanship (look, I'm smarter than you) and bullying games and those just seeking a place to blow off steam or who see it as a hobby or time-waster or an opportunity to indulge in obnoxious behaviour they'd never get away with in the 'real' world.<br /> <br /> I have to admit that I'm now tending towards the view that anyone, other than a moderator or site owner, who sees generating several thousand posts on a political forum discussing their (nobody else cares about) views as to how things in the nation should run as a 'hobby' or a fun thing to do should probably sell the old PC and seek professional help. Although, back when I was visiting forums to discuss DD stuff, I really enjoyed getting the rebuttal from some 'super dooper forum topdog', or whatever title the forum used, with 12,000 posts that 'nobody had time' for the involvement DD was seen to require from Joe citizen.<br /> <br /> But, hey...whatever turns your crank.<br /> <br /> As I'm not interested in any of the above, web forums don't seem to be the place for me.<br /> <br /> Oh, well. Nothing serious.<br /> <br /> All the contributors to 'Zionist' discussion have raised very valid points. Let's face it though, the topic is a minefield and rife with opportunity for misunderstandings.<br /> <br /> I haven't done an in-depth study of Zionism and don't intend to do so. I do rather think that regardless of the actual definition of 'Zionism', most who aren't well acquainted with the topic will unconsciously do some mental shorthand which ends with Zionist = Jew, rather the Zionist = Jew with certain specific beliefs.<br /> <br /> So wording things in a manner that doesn't inadvertently come across as offering support to the beliefs of anti-semites can be tricky. <br /> <br /> I'm not interested in my nation being drawn into 'Great Game' scenarios similar to those the U.S. has involved itself in time and again, e.g., side with the perceived lesser evil Taliban against the perceived greater evil Soviet Union, as these type of 'alliance' generally seem to come back to bite you in the ass as a later date.<br /> <br /> I really don't see the 'enemy of my enemy' as necessarily being my friend.<br /> <br /> The key issue in here, in my mind at least, in respect of any entity for which a concern exists as to it having undue or unwelcome control over Canadian policy remains that obvious fact that Canadians as a whole have absolutely no power to ensure their economy remains in their control, no power to prevent Canada from entering into alliances, 'back-room' deals or other arrangements with states which follow policies that are contrary to our own beliefs, no power to prevent 'special interest' groups of any nature influencing government to drag us in a direction most don't want to go and no power to prevent Canadian government or business from operating or becoming involved in activities in other nations in a manner contrary to our self-perceived national 'values'.<br /> <br /> For example, and as I've mentioned before, for me the real issue is not preventing the U.S. in particular from controlling our economy, and in doing so having significant influence over our decision making process. The real issue for most Canadians is preventing any external entity, whether the U.S., China or multi=national corporation, from undue control over our economy and from that our nation, and from that, our lives.<br /> <br /> So rather than dealing with perceived threats of this nature on a case by case basis, e.g., 'Zionists', 'Bilderbergers', U.S., we need to concentrate on the prevention of any external, or for that manner internal, entity exerting undue influence over national policies to the extent that these cease to reflect the beliefs and interests of most Canadians and instead reflect the interests of the particular external or internal, if you CCCE what I mean, entity.<br /> <br /> Simply identifying a 'threat' that needs to be addressed, e.g., undue 'special interest' group influence on policy, rather than perceived threats by name, e.g., U.S. influence, 'Zionist' influence, etc., takes the issue out of the whole 'hate speech', 'anti-American', etc. ball park.<br /> <br /> Given that the events of WWII were not an isolated incident in an otherwise trouble free, easy-going Jewish history, I agree it's very important to understand the sensitivities involved, particularly given the fact that anti-Jewish feeling is obviously not something that's disappeared since the mid-forties, and understand that those of us who are gentile types would likely share these sensitivities if we were Jews.<br /> <br /> At the same time, as you point out, historic injustices can't be held over the heads of others to prevent any questioning of Israeli policy in the here and now or as a reason to turn a blind eye to possible wrongs or policies most Canadians don't support or as support for state or self-censorship in respect of policies with which you don't agree.<br /> <br /> As insensitive as it may be, there are times I'd just as soon see Canada wash it's hands of the middle east and various other areas of the world where various groups have for centuries committed atrocities against each other simply because of cultural, religious or ethnic differences and limit our dealings with other nations to those that share whatever our values may be.<br /> <br /> Sometimes supporting one side against another creates a scenario in which neither side ever really has to seek an answer. And in some cases, the 'peacekeepers' may be despised by both sides anyway.<br /> <br /> I am however all for Canada providing a haven for those who want to remove themselves from these neverending quarrels where many involved seem more interested in shooting one another than in listening to one another, so long as they aren't simply bringing the conflict here.<br /> <br /> It is intersting though how you can censor yourself without knowing this is happening. I just realized that if I was surfing around and came across a site, other than B'Nai Brith and similar, with a headline that included 'Zionist', my first thought would be 'hate site' and I'd move quickly on without reading what was there. Funny how that goes.

[Marcarc]

There are two different themes in that, just quickly because I have to go (but I can't resist a debate I can understand and that is thought provoking), the zionist thing is true. The Israel topic is a minefield but small groups can't be allowed to get away with censoring debate. Roger Waters said it best "the germans kill the jews, the jews kill the arabs, the arabs kill the hostages and that is the news". But again, talking about Israel current policies and attempted future policies is a lot different than talking about 50 years ago, which is why I say there is a suspicion that such people are racist to begin with.<br /> <br /> I'm like Calumny, I pretty much stopped partaking in the forums because the site is not geared toward activism, but more toward alternative news. That's not a bad thing, however, it does explain why it remains on the fringe. However, sites like Canada.com aren't much different, they are just places for talk.<br /> <br /> Getting people active is something else entirely. I switched my focus to provincial matters and we've already succeeded in getting New Brunswick to update its archaic Residential Tenants Act because it didn't even grant basic rights to boarders. That hit a siderail because our chief lobbyist was arrested at Atlantica for taking pictures, and then banned from the legislature which made him stop covering politics almost entirely. <br /> <br /> It would be nice to have some kind of lobby group around that could jump on things like that when they occur. NB is a small province heavily reliant on transfer payments, and its chief industries sell all ove rthe world and pretty much run the provincial government.<br /> <br /> So a group that, like the CJC could jump on single issues like that and lobby all to hell would be incredible. However, there just aren't enough people here and the emphasis is always on federal issues, issues that have always been the hardest for canadians to act upon. <br /> <br /> However, that 'not being alone' theme is worth all the crazy posts ever. Meeting just ONE other person with similar aims is often enough. Locally, our municipality distributed a questionnaire for a public meeting, I knew damn well that nobody shows up but I figured I'd at least make an attempt and printed out enough for my street and put a sentence on the top saying that I don't represent anybody but if you want to fill this in and drop it in my mailbox then I'll bring it to the public meeting with me.<br /> <br /> Which is exactly what I did, although I only got about 10% of a return. That made me feel a little stupid, but two of them said "thank you for doing this" and that is enough to keep a person active. For the other 90% that was a writeoff, I realized when I was running for municipal council just how difficult it is just to walk up to somebody's door and put something in their mailbox (which explains why I'm a lousy attempted politician). <br /> <br /> Combine that with the fact that I already knew, which is that most people know it won't make a bit of difference and suddenly it becomes clear why most wouldn't bother.<br /> <br /> That's the same with this website. We seem to be at a point in canadian history where people simply don't see the option. People are apolitical because a lot of people talking politics are talking about stuff on the other side of the world, getting into arguments, or simply have no effect.<br /> <br /> So KNOWING what is going on is only part of it, and the result, as calumny mentions, is often simpy that a person feels they are smarter than everybody else (myself included) and that often brings the debate into one upmanship. That's the problem with the political system though, debate is all that we have. It becomes 'competitive' because unlike the US or Switzerland we can't do anything. <br /> <br /> That, of course, brings up the political system and once again the central problem is one of focus. The site is bent on federal issues, where the single biggest issue right now in the country, at least the one where we CAN do something, is the referendum in Ontario on proportional representation. This is a HUGE issue, because as ontario goes, so does most of the east. Yet most people aren't even aware of it, which is a bad sign. So we see reports about France's political system, yet none about ontario's. We hear about Rice, but not the democratic legislative that brought out the referendum. <br /> <br /> That's unfortunate and why lots of people simply tune out, however, the site is what it purports to be, and nothing stops people from posting about...whatever. However, its a catch 22 because when those types of issues aren't covered, people think there is no point in posting those types of issues, and move on. And the forums get even more narrower. <br /> <br /> Like I said, the zionist thing was pretty much a distraction for me while the wife watches telly, it holds no real interest to me, and there is little I can do about it anyway (I certainly won't be complaining about anything again).

[Diogenes]

Well (drawn out) You two, (Marcarc and Calumny) what you have last presented certainly qualifies as unfettered free thought and goes some way in in giving insight to the workings of your mind(s) sound and un-sound.<br /> <br /> <br /> hehe hoho<br /> as for ego<br /> In moderation, fellows in moderation, lest we become the "Decider(s)) of all others <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> nod nod <br /> any blind horeses out there?<br /> <br />

[Calumny]

It's also easy to get frustrated when you come up with an idea or information you think important and/or are excited about and no one else seems to care or want to jump on the bandwagon. This can be rather disappointing and sometimes taken as a personal slight. I know...been there, done that.<br /> <br /> And it's easy to get into the 'why don't they understand thing' where you're trying to get folks motivated about something and they just don't seem to 'get it' or care.<br /> <br /> I can only imagine how folks like David Suzuki must feel at times.<br /> <br /> It's also discouraging to realize how often people are their own worst enemys and/or the 'useful fools', or whatever it was, that some famous commie talked about.<br /> <br /> I was getting a haircut a few weeks back amidst a discussion of plant closures around the town and how 'the union did it to themselves' by asking for 'too much' (around $12.00 or so bucks an hour). There seemed to be some bitterness directed towards these greedy bastards by the minimum wage workers around me.<br /> <br /> So I'm sitting there thinking 'these folks don't get it' however, rather than starting on about free trade, decent wages, etc., I kept my mouth shut because I didn't want to come across as some sort of whacko, and a bad haircut, by spouting on about NAFTA and pointing out that these people should be asking why they aren't being paid more, rather than thinking others should be paid less and in doing so shooting themselves in the foot and becoming the type of 'useful fools' the 'global' economy backers want.<br /> <br /> I've found most Vive participants to be people with a lot too offer. It's funny we can't seem to move beyond talking when I'm sure forums like this are used quite successfully by other more militant minded 'lobby' groups, e.g., some of the 'hate groups' we've discussed.<br /> <br /> Not that I'm anyone who should be talking about 'action' or the lack of it in others.<br /> <br /> Still, it's funny how things can just go along until one day something snaps and everything changes. Given our credit-fueled economy and polls I've come across that indicate some 60% or more Canadians figure they're one paycheque away from the poorhouse, who knows when that might be?<br /> <br /> Sooner ot later I have to think a lot of people have to ask why all the promised 'prosperity' our politicians yammer on about from free trade agreements, etc., never seems to come their way and why they're working more and more for less and less.

[Diogenes]

"It's also easy to get frustrated when you come up with an idea or information you think important and/or are excited about and no one else seems to care or want to jump on the bandwagon. This can be rather disappointing and sometimes taken as a personal slight. I know...been there, done that." <br /> <br /> Quite!<br /> But here is how it was put to me and I now share that with you and the readership.<br /> We have no way of knowing how or who our words will impact.<br /> Being a lifelong avid reader I have stumbled across ( Bless Serendipity!) many a tract that has inspired me to this or that,<br /> but to not contribute out of ego, weak or strong ,is the real crime.<br /> It is the fear of how others may think of us, the fear of ridicule and "bad haircuts" that will grow out that stifles thought and exchanges of thought. That is why I am not in favour of censorship.<br /> Please see "Levant On Intellectual Superiority, Chaos, and Genocide" on the main page<br /> <br />