[Brent Swain]

Check further points on the gun registry under "Rural Issues"<br /> Brent

[wasjod]

<br /> Gun control does not work. As someone who lived in the UK when handguns were banned I saw the crime rate skyrocket, why? The criminals realise we were unarmed and therefore sitting ducks. You want to know how effective carrying a gun can be to maintain your safety? Go visit Somalia, a country supposedly in anarchy but for some reason everyone is getting along fine in the South where there is no government and ots of guns but killing each other in the North where there is government but not a lot of guns. Add the fact that you order a phone and it gets hooked up that day, satellite television, that day. It is amazing how quickly the market can respond when the government is not around regulating everything. <br /> <br /> I conceal and open carry when it is legal (I am a Canadian who travels to the US a lot) so I believe strongy in my right to own whatever gun I want but I also believe that if you use a gun in a crime that you should go directly to jail, no trial and no chance of parole. I believe that if you are caught driving while impaired that you should lose your liscence for the rest of your life. Some may call this harsh but I call it having balls. To many of you leftist and rightist pinkos cry on and on about the government doing something to stop guns but in the end you just want to slap people on the wrist, you are like those idiots in Sn Francisco who think that by banning handguns they will go away. Ever hear of the war on drugs? Thats been a real success mate, hasn't it? What about the war on prostitution? The war on terror? Now you want a war on guns? What about bird flu and the war on birds?Government does not solve problems, it just creates them, over and over and over again. <br /> <br /> "Armed people are free. No state can control those who have the machinery and the will to resist, no mob can take their liberty and property. And no 220-pound thug can threaten the well-being or dignity of a 110-pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out … People who object to weapons aren't abolishing violence, they're begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically "right." Guns ended that, and a social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work." – L. Neil Smith (from The Probability Broach)<br /> <br /> <br /> "Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA – ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." – Heinrich Himmler<br /> <br /> "The government is good at one thing. It knows how to break your legs, and then hand you a crutch and say, "See if it weren't for the government, you wouldn't be able to walk". – Harry Browne<br /> <br /> "The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." – Tacitus<br /> <br />

[Brent Swain]

Harper , since getting elected ,has not only done absolutely nothing to scrap the gun registry, but has promoted it's strong supporters to top government positions. He could have eliminated it in days after being sworn in, by order in council, but has done nothing. Given that he was the one reform MP who voted for it, this doesn't surprise me.<br /> One Tory MP at an all candidates meeting told me that as any rural NDP member will vote for scrappinmg the registry if given the chance,a vote for a rural NDP candidate is a vote agais the registry. I followed his advice and voted for his rural NDP opponent, who won by a tiny margin.<br /> If he doesnt scrap the registry , we can expect a huge surge in NDP support accross Sask, Manitoba, and other rural areas ,at the expense of the tories. Harper's urban advisers don't have the foggiest idea of how big an issue this is in rural areas. <br /> This could be the biggest example of a politician shooting himself in the foot ,and killing off any chance of most of his MPs being re-elected since Van Der Zalm in BC. Tories won power mainly with the suppport of rural voters, support which will dissapear overnight if he fails this one promise. <br /> It's time for rural Tory MPs to start expressing their disappointment to Harper to nip this liability in the bud and stave off a backbench revolt, before it has a chance to gain momentum.If they don't , they will be out of a job next election ,period. There is nothing greater that Harper can threaten them with , so they have nothing to lose.<br /> Brent

[Brother Jonathan]

[QUOTE by wasjod]</b> The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates. – Tacitus<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> This is an out-of-context (if not inaccurate) translation from <i>Annals</i>, book 3, §27:<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by Tacitus]</b> iamque non modo in commune sed in singulos homines latae quaestiones, et corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> A closer translation would be <i>And now bills were passed, not only for broad common goals but for individual men, and laws were most numerous when the commonwealth was most corrupt.</i> That is, the corruption of the Roman state (viz subsequent to Sulla’s dictatorship) was evidenced by the plethora of laws tailored for individuals — not that the corruption of any state at any time is evidenced solely by the frequency of that state’s legislation.

[badsector]

[QUOTE]frenchy says: Badsector believes firearms enthusiasts are all idiots who are missled, however I am absolutely sure that it's those who chose to buy the bullshit they are fed by the bureaucrats and politicians telling them of the value of long gun registry that are missled.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Let's investigate, who the idiots really are. Put emotions away and go with cold statistics. The numbers don't lie.<br /> <br /> Total murders with firearms, per country:<br /> #1 South Africa 31,918 <br /> #2 Colombia 21,898 <br /> #3 Thailand 20,032 <br /> #4 United States 8,259 <br /> #5 Mexico 3,589 <br /> #6 Zimbabwe 598 <br /> #7 Germany 384 <br /> #8 Belarus 331 <br /> #9 Czech Republic 213 <br /> #10 Ukraine 173 <br /> #11 Poland 166 <br /> #12 Canada 165 <br /> <br /> Of course Canada's population is 10% of US, so we should have roughly 10% of US crime rate to be equal. Based on that, we should have over 800 gun murders per year. Instead we have less than 200. It looks like Canada is a much safer place than Uncle Sam, gun control and all.<br /> <br /> Source: <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir">NationMaster.com - where stats come alive</a><br /> <br /> <i>"NationMaster.com has been reviewed by several major media outlets, including the New York Times, CNN, and The Christian Science Monitor. We have recently been given the nod by Nielsen/NetRatings as one of the fastest growing educational sites on the web, and rated by Top100Science.com as the 60th best science site on the net."</i><br /> <br /> As the numbers clearly indicate, guns don't make society safer. The more guns are out there the more innocent people die. It hits home when one of them is someone you care about. That is the point when opinions change. Until then it's the "evil" liberals who want to take your stinking gun away. After that it's more like "why did my son have to die and where did those guns come from?"<br /> <br /> Big difference.

[Brent Swain]

Canada's murder rate was lower before the gun registry. Switzerland , where every house has a gun has a very low murder rate, as do scandinavian countries which have a higher gun ownership rate thanm the US. By being selective you can nmake this arguement fit whatever arguement you want.<br /> The number of polar bear attacks on people has increased drastically recently. One woman walking with her two children at night turned around just in time to see a polar bear about to attack one of her kids. She jumped between the bear and her kids and told them to run. A hunter was close enought to hear her and shot the bear just as it was about to crack her skull. If the naive urban condo dwellers had had their way the nearest gun would have been thousands of miles away. Not all Canadians live in urban condos, nor should we be forced to .The charter gives un sthe right to live safely wherever we chose in Canada. People who can't handle the concept have no business being here.Forcing people off the land and ito cities sure hasn't helped reduce the crime rate.Taking away hunting and leaving only boozing as a teenage rural activity hasn't helped.<br /> The Auditor Generals report on the gun registry will be out as soon as parliament convenes . It promises to expose such corruption as to make the gomery report look like small change. Hopefully that will be the end of the gun registry and the end of the credibility of such a nutbar concept for at least 50 years.<br /> brent

[badsector]

Brent, I do not believe for a split second that Switzerland and Scandinavian states have "a gun every house". I keep asking for proof (credible sources) on this matter and receive none. <b>Please give me some sources, like I did above!</b><br /> <br /> The stats I quoted successfully counter the argument that guns make society safer. The most gun-friendly nation in the World is mired in gun crime. I don't want the same in Canada, do you? Do you like crime? Really?<br /> <br /> Yet I am not against gun ownership for people who need it. There is nothing in Canadian law that says people who need guns can't have them. You live in bear country? Get a gun. Just spend a minute of your precious time to fill out an application form. No big deal. Unless you have issues with writing. In that case get someone smarter to accompany you.<br /> <br /> Anyway... the stats speak for themselves.

[Brent Swain]

When you fill out a gun registration form you are putting your home on a computerised shopping list for gun thieves , one that according to the RCMP has been breached 221 times. Gun thieves, armed and dangerous have been doing B&Es , armed with specific lists of exactly which guns they can expect to find in the home.If you like being the target of such crimes, then fill out the form. If you don't, then don't fill it out. As even the pentagon has been hacked, promises of security against such breaches are total bullshit.<br /> Ask any Swiss person and they will tell you that they have a civilian militia rather than a regular army, which has spared it from invasion for centuries. Everyone participates, and has a gun.<br /> The stats you give are all for countries that have no social safety net compareable with what we have in Canada, and thus desperate poverty.They have a much wider gap between rich and poor, and no where near the educatuional oportunities we take for granted. The crime rates in such countries reflects the results of such inequities, not the numbers of guns. The number of guns people own is porportionate to the inequities and desperate poverty.The gun registry here and elsewhere has done absolutely nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, but has instead allowed them to operate with much greater impunity.It has also made owning a gun far more of a status symbol than it was when guns were considered a farm implement. There is not much gangsta status in owning a farm implement. <br /> Africa has a gun registry , modeled on Canada's.It's proven useless in reducing crime.<br /> People living in bear country should not have their ability to protect their families left at the discretion of totally naive urban bureaucrats, who can arbritarily deny them such safety without giving any good reason.<br /> Brent

[Frenchy]

Badsector can quote gun stats all he wants, however what he cannot point out is how many crimes were commited using registered fireams. I believe he is dreaming if he thinks the waste of cash, and loss of civil liberties firearm registry will stop gun violence. Hey badsector, do you honestly believe this piece of ill thought out legislation will make criminals register their firearms. If you do then you are totaly out of touch, and naive.

[Brent Swain]

Tell those freezing to Death in the strets of Winipeg, that we are making life safer for them by spending billions that could house and fed them ,harrassing farmers over their gopher shooters. Tel abuse victims that are turned away from shelters ,that we are making life safer by spending the money on gopher shooters instead .<br /> Brent

[wasjod]

<br /> To bring more history into this debate and maybe clear some things up. First, if you use stats then supply more than one source. Second, Hitler decided not to invade Switzerland not because it was full of mountains, Hitler called Switzerland the little porcupine. Why? Because most households had at least a semi-automatic assault rifle. Hitler knew that if he invaded Switzerland he would be bogged down forever. Switzerland had an army of the people. Just imagine if every household in Iraq had an AK-47, America would have not even gone in. Nothing spells defeat like a fully armed citizen capable of gorilla warfare. <br /> <br /> More on gun registration. When the Nazis invaded Norway they got a hold of the gun registry. Did the Nazis act like mature gentlemen and politely ask for everyone to turn their guns in? No, they went to all the addresses on the registry and decided to just kill the people at those addresses, nice. <br /> <br /> As to my quote of government being corrupt, the more laws a government passes the more it is corrupt, it does not matter if the laws are for the benifit of an individual or society as a whole. Just who do you think you are that you are entitled to my earnings for whatever "socially good" excuse (law) is used? The only people who need government to increase laws are those who are by nature, lazy. <br /> <br /> I am a Libertarian, which means you are not owed any of the fruits of my labours, no matter how you justify it and no matter who you send to enforce the laws. This is why I am a gun owner. I will protect myself if someone directs force at me, not matter what the excuse (law). Live and let live. The only solace I have is that soon in North America we will be in a survival situation, then and only then will big government idiots get what has been so long in coming to them. I will not initiate force but I will violently respond if force is tried to be initiated upon my person, property or family. <br /> <br /> As for guns, if you want the gun violence to stop, end the prohibiton on drugs and prostitution. How do you expect someone to say no to an opportunity to make $3000 in a night? Legalize and decriminalize. When was the last time you saw Molsons and Labatts do a drive by on each others breweries? Ever see Shoppers Drug Mart and London Drugs kill each other in a turf war? Remember prohibition in the US during the 1920's? The Mafia loved that, there were even drive-bys back then, turf wars, lots of cops machine gunned. A lot of the time the Mafia had illegal Tommy guns, laws really stopped that from happening didn't they? <br /> <br /> Today, military service for Swiss males is universal. At about age 20, every Swiss male goes through 118 consecutive days of recruit training in the Rekrutenschule. This training may be a young man's first encounter with his countrymen who speak different languages. (Switzerland has four official languages: German, French, Italian and Romansch.). Even before required training begins, young men and women may take optional courses with the Swiss army's M57 assault rifle. They keep that gun at home for three months and receive six half-day training sessions. <br /> <br /> From age 21 to 32, a Swiss man serves as a "frontline" troop in the Auszug, and devotes three weeks a year (in eight of the 12 years) to continued training. From age 33 to 42, he serves in the Landwehr (like America's National Guard); every few years, he reports for two-week training periods. Finally, from ages 43, to 50, he serves in the Landsturm; in this period, he only spends 13 days total in "home guard courses." Over a soldier's career he also spends scattered days on mandatory equipment inspections and required target practice. Thus, in a 30-year mandatory military career, a Swiss man only spends about one year in direct military service. Following discharge from the regular army, men serve on reserve status until age 50 (55 for officers). <br /> <br /> By the Federal Constitution of 1874, military servicemen are given their first equipment, clothing and arms. After the first training period, conscripts must keep gun, ammunition and equipment an ihrem Wohnort ("in their homes") until the end of their term of service. <br /> <br /> Today, enlisted men are issued M57 automatic assault rifles and officers are given pistol, Each reservist is issued 24 rounds of ammunition in sealed packs for emergency use. (Contrary to Handgun Control's claim that "all ammunition must be accounted for," the emergency ammunition is the only ammo that requires accounting.). After discharge from service, the man is given a bolt rifle free from registration or obligation. Starting in 1994, the government will give ex-reservists assault rifles. Officers carry pistols rather than rifles and are given their pistols the end of their service. <br /> <br /> When you expect the government and the law to protect you, you are being lazy and abdicating your own responsibility as a citizen. Banning something does not make it go away. Your parents ever ban you from looking at your daddy's porno mags, that worked didn't it? You need to accept the fact that the majority of adults are capable of making their own decisions and living with the consequences. My father was an alcoholic and was addicted to gambling. Did I want gambling and alcohol outlawed? No, of course not. My dad made a choice and accepted the consequences and no matter how much banning was done he would have still done what he did, that is reality, accept it or shut up and go away. The constant scare mongering of the bird flu, war on terror, drugs, etc. is getting tiring. Y2K did not kill everyone, SARS did not kill everyone, West Nile did not kill everyone, AIDS did not mutate and kill everyone. I could go on and on. Legalized drugs and prostitution will not kill everyone but keep them illegal, try to ban them, and someday it is going to be your son or daughter who gets their head shot to hell over something like a turf war.<br /> <br /> <br /> Gun control around the world<br /> <br /> http://www.lewrockwell.com/edmonds/edmonds39.html<br /> <br /> http://harris.dvc.org.uk/dunblane/andrew.html<br /> <br /> <br /> Swiss<br /> <br /> http://pages.prodigy.net/vanhooser/the_ ... r_guns.htm<br /> <br /> http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/thomassowell/2002/11/27/165030.html (right wing)<br /> <br /> http://timlambert.org/2003/07/0715/ (I suggest you read the first comment), "Not only that, they must demonstrate proficiency with it annually or they actually lose the right to vote."

[badsector]

[QUOTE]frenchy: Hey badsector, do you honestly believe this piece of ill thought out legislation will make criminals register their firearms. If you do then you are totaly out of touch, and naive. <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> No, the point is to reduce the availability of firearms. Fewer guns = less gun crime. Yet I am not saying that farmers shoudn't have guns, a point missed by you right-wingers.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]wasjod: Second, Hitler decided not to invade Switzerland not because it was full of mountains, Hitler called Switzerland the little porcupine. Why? Because most households had at least a semi-automatic assault rifle. Hitler knew that if he invaded Switzerland he would be bogged down forever.[/QUOTE]<br /> You need to brush up on history more. You read but don't understand. The Germans were more interested in respecting Switzerland's neutrality than invading it. Switzerland is the banker of the World. The nazis needed the Swiss banks as much as all the other World powers. Besides, Switzerland provided an excellent platform for hidden diplomacy between the warring parties. Also, Switzerland did nothing to provoke the Germans into war. It was neutral, it didn't attack Germany in any way, didn't mistreat German people on its soil (like Poland for instance), didn't grab territory from Germany (like France, Czekoslovakia and Poland did), so there was no point to invade it. It is true though, that the Swiss have a tough army. They have to, since traditionally they are not members of any military alliances.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]More on gun registration. When the Nazis invaded Norway they got a hold of the gun registry. Did the Nazis act like mature gentlemen and politely ask for everyone to turn their guns in? No, they went to all the addresses on the registry and decided to just kill the people at those addresses, nice. [/QUOTE]<br /> Actually, Norvegians suffered relatively little under the nazis, compared to other nations. You perhaps hear about Vidkun Quisling.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]As for guns, if you want the gun violence to stop, end the prohibiton on drugs and prostitution. [/QUOTE]<br /> Yeah sure, legalize crack cokaine! Do you know anything about that drug? Do you know how addictive and destructive it is? You can't be serious. Besides, you conservatives are always the first to cry murder when the Liberal government talks about legalizing marijuana. I also think they should legalize it, but a line must be drawn at hard drugs. You can't allow drugs like crack or heroine! Gosh.....<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Today, military service for Swiss males is universal.[/QUOTE]<br /> The same is true for most countries out there. Fewer countries have all volunteer armies than drafted ones.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]They keep that gun at home for three months and receive six half-day training sessions. [/QUOTE]<br /> I doubt they take their assault rifles home. Or bazookas, anti-tank weapons, fighter planes or main battle tanks. Handguns yes, but Canadian army reservists can do the same.<br /> <br /> <b>NOTE:</b> The links provided by wasjod are not legitimate statistics, just private opinions, hence their credibility is questionable. Anyone can post a website but it doesn't make it true. However, I looked into those sites and found some very interesting items, like these:<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]http://harris.dvc.org.uk/dunblane/andrew.html<br /> "To acquire any firearm in Norway you must obtain a "Permit to Acquire" from the police. This costs N.Kr.125 (ca. GB£12) per application. There is no upper limit on the number of firearms you can apply for. There is no set time on how long the application takes to process, but in my area 10 to 14 days is normal. [/QUOTE]<br /> Hey, the Swiss have a firearm registry and very little gun crime! Very good! So why can't we have one? What's the problem?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]http://pages.prodigy.net/vanhooser/the_swiss_and_their_guns.htm<br /> "Yet Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI), in its brochure "Handgun Facts," points to Switzerland as one of the advanced nations with strict handgun laws." The brochure states that all guns are registered, and handgun purchases require a background check and a permit. Gun crime in Switzerland is virtually non-existent. Therefore, concludes Handgun Control, America needs strict gun control."[/QUOTE]<br /> Very good! Yes, we need the Swiss system of stringent gun control and registration! Thank you for providing arguments for this!<br /> <br /> <b>Talking about negating your own arguments....</b>

[wasjod]

<br /> Badsector, I am not a "Conservative," I have never voted for them and never will, nor have I ever voted for the Liberals, the NDP, or the Green parties. A Libertarian believes strongly in social openness (a trait normally applied to Liberals) and fiscal openess (a trait normally applied to Conservatives). I am a Libertarian, which basically means I think my tax dollars belong to me and me only. I also do not agree with the initiation of violence in any form. A lot of people are afraid of Libertarianism because it forces them into doing something they don't really want to do at first, that is to take responsibility for their own actions and to stop blaming others for the position they find themselves in. As for sources, your sources are no more legitimate or illigitimate than mine. I believe that human beings have the capacity to decide for themselves. I know sometimes that we think we know what is best for everyone but that has never, and will never be true. I figure that someone has to be awfully unhappy with their own life to continue to try and dictate to others what they can and can't do, it is a trait of a bully, someone with low self-esteem. I suggest you find a copy of Dr. Mary J Ruwart's book "Healing Our World In An Age of Aggression," and give it a good read.<br /> <br /> http://www.ruwart.com/Pages/Home/<br /> <br /> <br /> http://www.theadvocates.org/Merchant2/m ... y_Code=BOO<br /> <br /> <br /> As for gun control, you really do need to read more and understand that your knee jerk reaction that all guns are bad is very uninformed. I do not care about gun registration, I care about banning guns. Yes handguns need to be registered in Norway but they are not banned are they? Do you honestly think that if handguns were banned that handgun crime in Canada would go down or go away? It went up in the UK. Do you mean to tell me that the drug pusher who makes $3000 a night is going to give us, the law abiding citizen, his handgun? Really? Wow, you must know something I don't, please enlighten me.

[wasjod]

Lets use badsectors wonderful stats page "Nation Master"<br /> <br /> <br /> Rapes per capita<br /> <br /> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap<br /> <br /> <br /> Seems Canada with our strict gun control laws have double the amount of rapes per capita than the United States of America and all of their handguns.<br /> <br /> <br /> Manslaughters per capita<br /> <br /> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_man_percap<br /> <br /> Canada, #40, US, not even on the chart.<br /> <br /> <br /> Assaults per capita<br /> <br /> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_ass_percap<br /> <br /> Finally the gun nuts in the USA score higher than we do, but not by much.<br /> <br /> <br /> Burglaries per capita<br /> <br /> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_bur_percap<br /> <br /> Again, the gun control nations are at or near the top, nice to know.<br /> <br /> <br /> Total crimes per capita<br /> <br /> http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_percap<br /> <br /> <br /> Wow, this never ends, nations with strict gun control have higher crime rates than those nations that do not, wow, who would have thought? The United Kingdom says no to handguns but we say yes, why then are they higher on the table?<br /> <br /> <br /> When you look at these kind of stats you need to look at per capita, espcially when countries have different populations, duh!<br /> <br />

[Brent Swain]

Why can't we have gun registry and a low gun crime rate? The fact is we have a gun registry and a high crime rate.So whhat did we get for our two billion dollars? wWhat did we getb for misapropriating billions of dollars which could have been used to actually save lives, had it been more wisely spent elsewhere?Gun registry has clearly shown it has no effect on the availability of guns; for criminals.It has actualy greatly enhanced the black market for guns and greatly incresed it's profitability, like prohibition did with alcohol, while. Anyone who fails to recognise that , is libving in a fantasy world. Not supporting such foolishness has nothing to do with right vs left politics. Out of 9 NDP memebers who voted on the gun registry, 8 voted against it.A Tory MP told me that all rural NDP members will vote to abolish it.So I voted for his rural NDP opponent , who won by a tiny margin.<br /> Brent