[lesouris]

I don't think you understand the gravity of Mr. Züdel's claims and how disrespectful and blatantly racist he is. Anyone who publishes panphlets with titles like "The Hitler We Loved and Why" and "Did Six Million Really Die?" is seriously disturbed and should be put in a psychiatric hospital. My great-grandfather was in the Dutch Army and saw first hand the horrors of the Holocaust when he was caputured and put in a Labour Camp, and I cannot believe that to this day people are denying that this sick and twisted moment in human history ever happened, but that it was all a Jewish conspiracy. <br /> <br />This man is anti-Semtic and he doesn't hide it. He has said publicly, "The Jews of the world have a Holocaust coming." This is disgusting, and this is why he is facing the criminal charge of holocaust denial in his homeland of Germany. The only reason he is in jail here is because he is awaiting an extradicition hearing in which he hopes to be granted refugee status. He is being held because the last time charges were laid against him in Canada (for spreading false news), he fled the country, and he cannot be trusted with bail. <br /> <br />We do not live in an absolute democracy; we do not have freedom to commit crimes, nor do we have the freedom to publish hate literature. Section One of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects our society from this perversion of the freedom of speech. <br /> <br />I think we should just send him back to Germany and wash our hands of this man.

[N Say]

zundel is of course a complete lunatic but i don't think he should be in jail just for writing some crazy ^&*% about the holocaust. i don't think the government should have the right to determine historical truth & to punish people who deviate from it. if someone wants to be racist & ruin their life it's really none of my business. i (& others) can tell them they better not but there should be no reason for them to pay any attention. i don't think it should be illegal for someone to disagree with me (or 99.9999999999% of everyone else). if you believe in freedom of speech/expression/etc that means you believe in freedom of speech precisely for things which are utterly offensive (& & which you disagree with & so on), which of course includes what zundel does.

[lesouris]

Zundel is not in jail because of his writing (well, he is in a more abstract sense). He is in jail because he is considered a flight risk, and therefore cannot be let out on bail before his extradicion trial. He is wanted in Germany for the crime of Holocaust denial (it is illegal in that country), and the German has requested his extradition to face trial in the land of his citizenship. As I said before, he considered a flight risk because he has already left Canada while out on bail on a different charge in the 1990s. <br /> <br />The problem with saying that he should be allowed to say whatever he wants about the Holocaust is that what he says has an effect on some people; it is a motivation for hate crimes. In the late 1990s he had a website that promoted violence against Jews. He is known to have links with violent British and Canadian Neo-Nazi groups. <br /> <br />In Canada, we do not have complete freedom of speech and the press: we have hate crime legislation that protects Canadians from violent and hate-filled speech and literature. This is all guarunteed by s. 1 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which says, "The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society." <br /> <br />There are a lot of sick people out there who say a lot of stupid things, but what this man is promoting is so full of hate that the freedom of speech no longer applies to him. His refugee claims must be denied and he should be shipped off to Germany as quickly as possible. <br /> <br />I mean, this is what the man believes: <br />-Jews are responsible for Communism and should pay for it <br />-Jews are parasites and live a parasitic existence <br />-Jews created Hitler <br />-Jews are racist <br />-Less than 20 000 Jews died at Auschwitz <br />-Jews deserve another Holocaust <br /> <br />Now I ask you, can this sort of racist propoganda exist in a free and democratic society?

[N Say]

how many people would think that zundel has anything meaningful to say, and wouldn't think he's a total idiot? is the percentage higher than 0% ? if someone wants to ruin their life trying to write about that stuff i say go ahead. i don't agree with what they say but it's none of my business. it shouldn't be illegal for someone to think differently from me, or the government or anybody else.

[lesouris]

What I'm concerned about is impressionable young white males who feel society is somehow betraying them by being inclusive towards others. These people can be lured into this Nazi mindset by hate literature like the pamphlets and websites published by Zundel. Believe me, Naziism is witnessing a resurgence amongst young males, just look at Europe. In France, Austria, the Netherlands, and other nations, there is a significant portion of the population who vote for parties with fascist, racist, and intolerant tendencies. We cannot allow this hate to spread to our nation, and if we don't stop men like Zundel, we will see parties like these achieve electoral success. <br /> <br />Now I don't mean to sound like some lunatic, but when Hitler started writing his hate literature, most people just wrote it off as unimportant hogwash, and look what happened there. We cannot allow neo-nazis to gain a foothold in our society at all; they are a disease that will spread across the populace and pervert the ideals that we as Canadians so cherish: multiculturalism, tolerance, and mutual respect.

[Marcarc]

1. If you honestly believe that 'impressionable young white males' will buy into this because of some brochures I think you had better give up on your idea of Canada, because clearly it is filled with retards (not pertaining to the mentally challenged here). <br />2. Locking him up simply makes more people pay attention to him thus defeating the initial purpose. <br />3. Having ties to 'neo-nazis' is not a crime, in fact if you look at much of the history of much of the so-called 'white supremacy movement' out west it was orchestrated and led by members of the RCMP. <br />4. This isn't the united states, as stated the charter clearly gives the government the final say on charter rights. The government can arbitrarily decide whenever comments are actionable-just read your canadian history on labour movements or the two world wars. <br />5. It is PRECISELY because his statements are so despicable that he shouldn't be censured. It is at that point that he stops becoming the issue, and the failings of our society starts becoming it. <br />6. Hitler's power certainly didn't come from what he wrote. That's just crazy. Read your history.

[lesouris]

This man is not a Canadian citizen, he is not an American citizen, he is a German citizen, we should let his government deal with him the way they wants according to their laws and constitution. Germany isn't Syria, they're not going to torture him or kill him. <br /> <br />What this man preaches is absolutely disgusting. We have hate crime legislation in Canada that is meant to keep men like him from spreading his hateful message. If you don't believe there are impressionable young men and women out there who will take this message seriously you are living in a dream world. Look at the last few years, at the history of the world; maniacs can convince people to do whatever they want. I mean, the Manson family, the Branch Davidians, Al-Qaeda, the Ku Klux Klan, Heaven's Gate, the People's Temple (remember Jonestown in Guyana), even in Canada there was the Order of the Solar Temple. The leaders of these groups convinced them to kill others, to kill themselves, how is Ernst Zundel's message of hatred any different from theirs? That's not even taking into account the rise of militant neo-Naziism in Western countries like Canada. Do you honestly believe that men like Zundel have no responsibilty for the desecration of Jewish cemeteries in France and Germany, at least partially. You might think it is impossible for people to believe all this Nazi crap, but people believe, and they will kill for their beliefs. <br /> <br />We must be responsible and crush neo-Naziism at its roots. We cannot permit the growth of hate in this country as it already has in nations as similar to ours as Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States - we must not let it develop in Canada. <br /> <br />There is a point at which a democratic society must limit a person's rights so as to guaruntee everyone can live in a safe and democratic society. We do not grant prisoners their mobility rights, we do not let homophobes publish pamphlets promoting violence towards homosexuals, we do not let children vote, we should not let anti-Semites promote violence against Jews as Ernst Zundel has...for god's sake, he published a pamphlet called the Hitler we Loved and Why. He has said the Jews deserve another Holocaust! If that is not a validation of the atrocities of the Holocaust, I don't know what is. <br /> <br />I have been told stories of the Holocaust by people who have witnessed it themselves. My great-grandfather was put in an infamous labour camp in his native Netherlands, my friend's grandmother was put in Auschwitz, my stepbrothers' grandmother escaped Czechoslovakia just before the rest of her family was slaughtered. By allowing this man to say that none of that happened is a disgracee to their memory and the memories of the 12-26 million victims of the Holocaust, the 12.6 million soldiers who died defeating Hitler and the 39.2 million civilians killed in the process. These are verified numbers. Ask any Jewish, Polish, or Roma family who came here after the war if they lost a family member in the Holocaust - these numbers add up. <br /> <br />This is not a matter of freedom of speech or the press, this is a matter of the freedom to draw swasticas on a Jew's gravestone, the freedom to incite violence, the freedom to call for the extermination of a people. Where in the constitution are those freedoms guarunteed? Where in a free and democratic society can these freedoms be exercized? <br /> <br />Now, you can make whatever critisisms you want of the Government of Israel, or B'nai Brith, or whatever organization you feel is being unjust, but when you suggest an entire race is in on a conspiracy and should be wiped off the face of the Earth for it, that is totally unnacceptable. <br /> <br />Maybe someone should send Mr. Zundel copies of Anne Frank's Diary and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms because I don't think he understands either of them.

[Marcarc]

In fact, neo-nazism in Canada has been decreasing for quite some time, it took a noticeable nosedive after the RCMP stopped 'propping it up' in an effort to arrest its ringleaders (who were later discovered to also be RCMP). When violent movements occur, they have the same parameters as peaceful movements-meaning their existence isn't tied to or even sustained by a single individual. Your case about the jewish cemetary in Montreal is apt yet in today's political climate I think it would be a mistake to look at Israel's imperialist policies and Zundel's easily refutable claims and attribute anti-semitic actions to his preachings. Attacking jewish cemetaries is, of course, racist, yet the people who commit such a crime do so because they can't affect Israel. Just as any muslim will tell you that similar things occurred to them right after 9/11 and continue today with little press coverage. In fact I can tell you from experience that I have heard similar things about muslims. To go one step further there are many leading american politicians and commentators who quite openly claim that Iraq should simply be 'wiped out with carpet bombing'. Yet not only are they not censured, but are actively praised. Now, this is not our war, yet I hear similar comments in Canada about native groups. In Oka many leading writers and politicians were saying they should be forcibly removed, and since they were armed this of course meant they should be killed (or at least wounded). In Canada we try to pretend we're civilized, we don't preach genocide but let our government do it for us and tsk tsk about 'the native problem' (but certainly don't listen to natives). To me this is far more harmful to society than one man's anti-semitic ramblings. <br /> Keep in mind too that "the Hitler we love" (as Zundel states) was Time magazine's "Man of the Year" in 1938. Had he confined his hatred to gays, gypsies, catholics, slavics, communists and anarchists he would probably still be in power. In fact the american government after the war made sure that most european countries adopted the fascist agenda-most were strongly democratic after the war. Here in Canada I think we can easily relate to Germany's plight. Hitler dissolved parliament and continuously motivated fear by technical means. In Canada, of course, we can do nothing about our government's actions. We have no recall, no referendum rights, no initiative rights, and even our charter rights can quite easily be overridden. I can think of no political system which would have made Hitler happier. Even better it gives the pretense to democracy which enables it to sustain itself and gain some relative merits. <br /> That a person can be taught violent behaviour from propaganda I do not dispute, in fact Canada has been a textbook example of exactly that for two world wars. However, his claim is that jews 'deserve' another holocaust. He does not tell people to carry out any violent action, which would be the similarity to the hate literature you mention. I've heard many a die-hard christian claim that homosexuals 'deserve' to die because of their abherrant lifestyle and because they are constantly living 'against' Gods wishes. It takes more than that justify locking them up permanently and conducting secret trials which won't let their own lawyer see the evidence against them. <br /> Just as a final note, do some more research on most of those organizations you mention. In fact, in Jonestown it is known that their leader was being given LSD secretly by the CIA. Remember, this was a socialist movement. There is also strong evidence that the CIA was involved in the deaths of the people in Jonestown. If you think about it, it seems perfectly beleivable since the people were preaching a communist lifestyle much like many south american countries which had to brought into line forcibly by the US. Jonestown was NOT a religious movement, it had people of all faiths and cultures, it was a POLITICAL movement, which is why it was chased out of the US in the first place. <br /> To take the risk at being unpopular here, I must say that there are some issues which need to be examined about the holocaust but which are 'off limits' due to our cultural beliefs. This was not the first or last holocaust, and even Hitler's main opponents were communists.

[Adrien]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] This man is not a Canadian citizen, he is not an American citizen, he is a German citizen, we should let his government deal with him the way they wants according to their laws and constitution. Germany isn't Syria, they're not going to torture him or kill him. <br /> <br />What this man preaches is absolutely disgusting. We have hate crime legislation in Canada that is meant to keep men like him from spreading his hateful message. If you don't believe there are impressionable young men and women out there who will take this message seriously you are living in a dream world. Look at the last few years, at the history of the world; maniacs can convince people to do whatever they want. I mean, the Manson family, the Branch Davidians, Al-Qaeda, the Ku Klux Klan, Heaven's Gate, the People's Temple (remember Jonestown in Guyana), even in Canada there was the Order of the Solar Temple. The leaders of these groups convinced them to kill others, to kill themselves, how is Ernst Zundel's message of hatred any different from theirs? That's not even taking into account the rise of militant neo-Naziism in Western countries like Canada. Do you honestly believe that men like Zundel have no responsibilty for the desecration of Jewish cemeteries in France and Germany, at least partially. You might think it is impossible for people to believe all this Nazi crap, but people believe, and they will kill for their beliefs. <br /> <br />We must be responsible and crush neo-Naziism at its roots. We cannot permit the growth of hate in this country as it already has in nations as similar to ours as Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States - we must not let it develop in Canada. <br /> <br />There is a point at which a democratic society must limit a person's rights so as to guaruntee everyone can live in a safe and democratic society. We do not grant prisoners their mobility rights, we do not let homophobes publish pamphlets promoting violence towards homosexuals, we do not let children vote, we should not let anti-Semites promote violence against Jews as Ernst Zundel has...for god's sake, he published a pamphlet called the Hitler we Loved and Why. He has said the Jews deserve another Holocaust! If that is not a validation of the atrocities of the Holocaust, I don't know what is. <br /> <br />I have been told stories of the Holocaust by people who have witnessed it themselves. My great-grandfather was put in an infamous labour camp in his native Netherlands, my friend's grandmother was put in Auschwitz, my stepbrothers' grandmother escaped Czechoslovakia just before the rest of her family was slaughtered. By allowing this man to say that none of that happened is a disgracee to their memory and the memories of the 12-26 million victims of the Holocaust, the 12.6 million soldiers who died defeating Hitler and the 39.2 million civilians killed in the process. These are verified numbers. Ask any Jewish, Polish, or Roma family who came here after the war if they lost a family member in the Holocaust - these numbers add up. <br /> <br />This is not a matter of freedom of speech or the press, this is a matter of the freedom to draw swasticas on a Jew's gravestone, the freedom to incite violence, the freedom to call for the extermination of a people. Where in the constitution are those freedoms guarunteed? Where in a free and democratic society can these freedoms be exercized? <br /> <br />Now, you can make whatever critisisms you want of the Government of Israel, or B'nai Brith, or whatever organization you feel is being unjust, but when you suggest an entire race is in on a conspiracy and should be wiped off the face of the Earth for it, that is totally unnacceptable. <br /> <br />Maybe someone should send Mr. Zundel copies of Anne Frank's Diary and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms because I don't think he understands either of them.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />"But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can't lock up an idea." - Tommy Douglas <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] What I'm concerned about is impressionable young white males who feel society is somehow betraying them by being inclusive towards others. These people can be lured into this Nazi mindset by hate literature like the pamphlets and websites published by Zundel. Believe me, Naziism is witnessing a resurgence amongst young males, just look at Europe. In France, Austria, the Netherlands, and other nations, there is a significant portion of the population who vote for parties with fascist, racist, and intolerant tendencies. We cannot allow this hate to spread to our nation, and if we don't stop men like Zundel, we will see parties like these achieve electoral success. <br /> <br />Now I don't mean to sound like some lunatic, but when Hitler started writing his hate literature, most people just wrote it off as unimportant hogwash, and look what happened there. We cannot allow neo-nazis to gain a foothold in our society at all; they are a disease that will spread across the populace and pervert the ideals that we as Canadians so cherish: multiculturalism, tolerance, and mutual respect.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I think some Canadians cherish multiculturalism, but it has its limits here as well. Toronto, Vancounver are not all of Canada, and I do think visible minorites will not necesaarily be treated with the same tolerance if they become a much larger percentage of our population. We don't have the European-style "Romanian dislikes the Polish" sort of prejudice, but I hardly think most communities in Canada would react favourably to some foreign cultures gaining a stronghold. Let's not pretend all Canadians thinki the same way. <br /> <br />I don't think, for example, Canadians would be happy if people of Asian decent became the majority in Canada. Just the sense I've gotten. It's one thing to be inclusive, it's another for the ethnic balance in a country to change dramatically....this has had a very disastrous effect on the United States and France, and it will affect Canada eventually as well.

[Marcarc]

I just wanted to agree with the above poster and carry it a bit further because considerable studies have been done on exactly this point. Canadians share exactly the same prejudices as other countries. European prejudices are highly overrated and a visit there will show that. We see the exact same thing on this website at the Quebec sovereignty thread where the racism is often thinly veiled. <br /> I just wanted to tell a story I heard on the CBC over the weekend about a famous canadian architect. He's jewish and grew up in Timmins and says he was regularly beaten by the other children as a 'christ killer', his only protection, interestingly enough, was the french catholics. If you're any kind of minority, you already know this. In fredericton african students were always complaining of their treatment by the police simply because of their colour. <br /> One of the reasons I run and put such energy into direct democracy is that when people have as little power as they have had in democracies of the west it is easy for their governments to play one group off against another. However, apart from these autocratic and artificial institutions people are far more ready to look out for their self interest by mutual cooperation. Look at Switzerland which is among the most stable democracies made up of three linguist groups - french, german, and italian. With a more decentralized flexible government then perhaps we'd have fewer problems.

[lesouris]

[QUOTE BY= Adrien]"But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can't lock up an idea." - Tommy Douglas <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />So I guess we should just let murderers go free because we will never completely wipe out the idea of murder? Everything has a context and a limit, you have taken this quote out of both. <br /> <br />Now, I do not argue that most people wouldn't want another ethnic group encroaching on the established culture in Canada. This is not a Canadian culture, it is a European culture slightly altered by a few centuries of separation. <br /> <br />Frankly, people who believe that English and French Canadians have a monopoly on Canadian culture disgust me, and that these people need to be protected from the "ethnics". Give me one good reason why white people should be the majority here. What makes the white people who encroached on Aboriginal society different from others coming to our country now, except that they are almost 100% peaceful. <br /> <br />Maybe I have a different outlook than some of you other people because I grew up in Toronto where 51% of people are immigrants, and that I grew up in the Age of Multiculturalism. Most of my ancestors have been in Canada for over 150 years, and the earliest I know of came here in the 1700s. I am the descendent of Loyalists and Irish immigrants, but also of Dutch refugees. I am as established white Canadian as you can get, but I don't believe people like me should have a monopoly on Canada at all. <br /> <br />What I envision Canada to be in the future is a land where there is no ethnic, religious, or linguistic majority. A place where no one has a monopoly on culture, and everyone can practise whatever customs they want, even if they aren't in their ancestry (for instance, a white woman could wear a Sari if she wanted and no one would care, or a Chinese person could play the bagpipes for a living). <br /> <br />Maybe today rural areas are mostly white, but do you seriously think you can protect that when the nation does not have a sustainable birthrate? If immigrants don't move into these areas, these small towns and sprawling farms will disappear. <br /> <br />What I advocate is not a nation where half the people are Chinese, but neither do I think French and British people should have this priviledge either. I'm talking about a nation where there are many different minorities working together to create a world culture - a vision of the world that can be, but does not exist. <br /> <br />What this Zundel man advocates can destory the Canada I know and love with his teachings. I am not naive, and I know there are a lot of problems with our society, I know that Naziism will always be an ideology espoused by a very small minority of people. When someone calls for the entire obliteration of a people, no matter which people, they should be locked up becuase they pose a threat to the security of others. I think people who think natives should be wiped out should also be put in jail, and also those who preach violent Islamophobia. <br /> <br />If it is a crime to tell a person you are going to kill them, shouldn't it be a crime to tell millions of people that you are going to kill them all?

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] I just wanted to agree with the above poster and carry it a bit further because considerable studies have been done on exactly this point. Canadians share exactly the same prejudices as other countries. European prejudices are highly overrated and a visit there will show that. We see the exact same thing on this website at the Quebec sovereignty thread where the racism is often thinly veiled. <br /> I just wanted to tell a story I heard on the CBC over the weekend about a famous canadian architect. He's jewish and grew up in Timmins and says he was regularly beaten by the other children as a 'christ killer', his only protection, interestingly enough, was the french catholics. If you're any kind of minority, you already know this. In fredericton african students were always complaining of their treatment by the police simply because of their colour. <br /> One of the reasons I run and put such energy into direct democracy is that when people have as little power as they have had in democracies of the west it is easy for their governments to play one group off against another. However, apart from these autocratic and artificial institutions people are far more ready to look out for their self interest by mutual cooperation. Look at Switzerland which is among the most stable democracies made up of three linguist groups - french, german, and italian. With a more decentralized flexible government then perhaps we'd have fewer problems.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />If European prejudice is overrated then Canadian prejudice is grossly overrated. Europe IS more sexist and racist than Canada. <br /> <br />What about Russia? Do you hate Russia for disliking any male that isn't short-haired and white, and treating women like second class citizens? It's just the way things are. No need to be righteous about anything.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE]Now, I do not argue that most people wouldn't want another ethnic group encroaching on the established culture in Canada. This is not a Canadian culture, it is a European culture slightly altered by a few centuries of separation.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Can we then label it Canadian? <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Frankly, people who believe that English and French Canadians have a monopoly on Canadian culture disgust me, and that these people need to be protected from the "ethnics". [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Does this include protection from the PQ in Quebec? <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Give me one good reason why white people should be the majority here. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Because they founded the country. Give me one reason they shouldn't. <br /> <br />1. Because you want to live in a reserve and chant "Hi hi, hey, hey." <br /> <br />2. Because you think the persecuted of the third world are more enlightened, more capable of governing, despite the fact their countries are often more racist and violent than Canada is? <br /> <br />3. Because you dislike your own people? <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What makes the white people who encroached on Aboriginal society different from others coming to our country now, except that they are almost 100% peaceful.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />Great question, and I love playing devil's advocate. Reason: because Canada was sparesely populated, and modern science didn't exist. We now have the mechanism to regulate who comes to Canada, and we've used it thoughtlessly. 1970s ideology is currently determining our immigration policies. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Maybe I have a different outlook than some of you other people because I grew up in Toronto where 51% of people are immigrants, and that I grew up in the Age of Multiculturalism. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I also grew up (and still live) in Toronto. I grew up playing with recent immigrants and long-time residents alike every summer, while wealthier types went on vacations. <br /> <br /> <br /> Most of my ancestors have been in Canada for over 150 years, and the earliest I know of came here in the 1700s. I am the descendent of Loyalists and Irish immigrants, but also of Dutch refugees. I am as established white Canadian as you can get, but I don't believe people like me should have a monopoly on Canada at all. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What I envision Canada to be in the future is a land where there is no ethnic, religious, or linguistic majority. A place where no one has a monopoly on culture, and everyone can practise whatever customs they want, even if they aren't in their ancestry (for instance, a white woman could wear a Sari if she wanted and no one would care, or a Chinese person could play the bagpipes for a living.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I undertand....I just wonder if you wouldln't feel lonely? <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Maybe today rural areas are mostly white, but do you seriously think you can protect that when the nation does not have a sustainable birthrate? If immigrants don't move into these areas, these small towns and sprawling farms will disappear.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Personally I've talked about this problem on Vive before......right now the only immgrants who venture into the country are the immigrants who work seasonally on farms like the Simcoe Ontario tobacco farms.....they bring in many Jamaicans, but they go back furing the winter months. <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]What I advocate is not a nation where half the people are Chinese, but neither do I think French and British people should have this priviledge either.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />But our official languages are French and english. If the Chinese were increasing rapidly, what would you do to prevent them from becoming more than half of Canada? Tough question, eh? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE]I'm talking about a nation where there are many different minorities working together to create a world culture - a vision of the world that can be, but does not exist.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Maybe it can't exist. Maybe the human desire to belong is too strong. <br />

[Marcarc]

Well, this thread is getting far too esoteric for me, but I'll add a couple of comments. I'm not sure what you mean by Russia, first of all. However, under communism women had far higher educational levels than they do in the United States. In Canada it WAS higher but that has radically changed in the last twenty years. Today, of course, under the patriarchal capitalism they have adopted you can find many an engineer working in a brothel. <br /> One measure of 'sexism' is domestic violence which is far higher in canada than it is in continental western europe. Another would be pay disparity which is also far closer in most european countries. Scandinavian politicians and professionals have far more women as a percentage (although Canada is catching up-well, not the politicians). <br /> While I share the utopian vision you project, it is highly unlikely under our current form of government. If you live in Toronto then you know well the economic disparities between neighbourhoods, the problems minorities are having with police, etc. Under that utopian vision there are also problems such as was found when a certain sect of islam sought to use their native domestic disputes which did not recognize women as equals. Here another 'culture' if you will, had to intervene. <br /> Finally, I stand by my earlier point. There will always be people saying nasty things, we need not listen. My argument has been that Zundel's impact was negligible, neo-nazi's in the west, what there were, were not concerned with semitism, which has few footprints out west. I'm from the east where there are not enough jews to even be anti semitic. <br /> Finally, it is one thing to tell a person to shut up or marginalize them, it is another to cut off their means of transmission, yet it's another to rob them of their freedom and the right to a fair travel. Once those things are done the judgement becomes not an issue of intoleration but one of injustice. The state should not be in the position where it is expected to dole out justice, yet is unjust itself. <br />