[Spud]

Interesting1Sounds good,but there is this thing called NAFTA. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/evil.gif' alt='Evil'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Spud] Interesting1Sounds good,but there is this thing called NAFTA. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/evil.gif' alt='Evil'> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> This wouldn't stop construction, but could you expand on what you mean?

[talus]

This is a great idea. If it were coast to coast, then when one side of the country had excess power the other side could be using it and vice-versa It makes sense due to the time zone difference. It may also power an electric railway line which someone else mentioned would reduce transportation pollution.<br /> I say do it Canada!<br /> This would make a great election promise.<br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

Gee, isn't it interesting that when Ontario needs something the claim is "let's nationalize it". We didn't hear that when PEI had to go begging New Brunswick for Power, or Nova Scotia has to increase the number of coal plants. Those provinces got squat from the federal government for their power needs, but let's see how they feel about their tax dollars going to juice up southern ontario.<br /> <br /> Of course, the maritimes can't provide any hydro anyway, and they're smart enough to run the natural gas lines south to the states or they'd just get burned again (although sometimes the choice is get burned by Ottawa or get burned by the states). I wonder what the Manitobans will think of the idea when their Hydro discovers that it makes more money selling to southern Ontarians than it does to Manitobans. I have a feeling that Duncan is going to find a few cold shoulders to this 'national dream'. A new NEP perhaps?

[talus]

I'd rather light up PEI than Las Vegas because someone living in that province really should have the same rights to this resource as I do. We're all Canadians here. The same goes for the gas and oil in my book. You would need pretty tall towers to get the lines over the rockies though. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Gee, isn't it interesting that when Ontario needs something the claim is "let's nationalize it". We didn't hear that when PEI had to go begging New Brunswick for Power, or Nova Scotia has to increase the number of coal plants. Those provinces got squat from the federal government for their power needs, but let's see how they feel about their tax dollars going to juice up southern ontario.<br /> <br /> Of course, the maritimes can't provide any hydro anyway, and they're smart enough to run the natural gas lines south to the states or they'd just get burned again (although sometimes the choice is get burned by Ottawa or get burned by the states). I wonder what the Manitobans will think of the idea when their Hydro discovers that it makes more money selling to southern Ontarians than it does to Manitobans. I have a feeling that Duncan is going to find a few cold shoulders to this 'national dream'. A new NEP perhaps?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Oh good God, you can be such a twit. Did you even read the article? Duncan wants the entire country to have access to a grid eventually.<br /> <br /> PEI and New Brunswick didn't have provincial politicians willing to bring this up. They collectively have the population of part of Toronto.<br /> <br /> Ontario also drives Canada's economy, sends billions in transfer payments to places like Manitoba, PEI and Nova Scotia and has the bulk of the electricity-hungry industry, as well as a large percentage of Canada's population, but yeah, let's shoot ourselves in the foot once again. Christ.

[Marcarc]

If you're that sensitive about criticism and just want a soapbox to preach from then I'd recommend setting up your own blog site or web site where you don't have to worry about the 'twits' reigning on your magnificent insights.<br /> <br /> I did read the article, and it's typical Ontario hogwash. If you really think that an Ontario energy minister is interested in the 'rest of the country' then you're deluded. In fact HE doesn't even mention it. The article is about getting power to Ontario from Quebec and Manitoba- that's all he says. There's no mention of BC or PEI anywhere in there. If that was his interest then he'd show some goodwill by investing even a little Ontario energy money into PEI's miniscule energy needs. He's not. He could even be saving by joining PEI's 'wind power' program which would reduce costs as they could buy wind turbines in bulk-he's not. Maritimers long ago learn to distrust Ontario politicians when they claimed to want to 'set up a program' that would 'eventually' include all parts of the country. What tripe!<br /> <br /> <br /> The other part is hogwash as well and explains why the rest of the country has such lousy views of Ontario and how only a poorly designed electoral system keeps Ontario as the hub (well, magnificently designed if you're a political party from Ontario). The 'have not' provinces get 1 billion dollars from the federal government. Per capita that pays for far fewer programs than are available in Ontario. As far as Ontario 'producing industry' - Why do you think it does? Why do you think every city in Ontario has a University whether it's Toronto or Peterborough. Don't even say 'because that's where the population is' because only 25% of Ontarians even go to Univesity, a lower percentage even than the states which surround it. The rest are foreign students and students from outside the province (who could be going to a local university if the funding were there) <br /> <br /> Where do you think research funding goes? Certainly not to New Brunswick that can't even afford a medical school. Industry is in Ontario because that's where the money is. The feds would just have to pony up some dough to build a facility in New Brunswick but that's 'too much investment' whereas Sudbury (population about the same as Saint John) now has a state of the art cancer centre, research facility, and medical school. <br /> <br /> Look also at how it got there. If you don't think that Ontario benefits then you haven't even BEEN to the maritimes. For the past fifty years, well, longer, but lets' keep it current, the maritimes essentially paid for health care, upbringing, and the education of kids who would eventually go to Ontario to work since that's where the jobs were. That's quite a cost savings when you don't have to raise the next generation of workers. Of course now that's even being cut loose now that Ontario (re:feds) have discovered that it's EVEN CHEAPER to get ready made workers from China, India, Pakistan, or whereever through immigration. This explains why transfer payments have been going down, down, down while federal surpluses have been going up up up.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE]I did read the article, and it's typical Ontario hogwash. If you really think that an Ontario energy minister is interested in the 'rest of the country' then you're deluded.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> He's a member of the Ontario government. He was simply speculating that this could be the first step towards a national energy grid. No hidden agenda. He openly admits this is intended to increase our supply of reliable, low-cost power while allowing us to close our coal-fired power plants.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]He could even be saving by joining PEI's 'wind power' program which would reduce costs as they could buy wind turbines in bulk-he's not. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Wind power woulf require federal help as well, and this was mentioned the in Star more than once in the past. Wind power won't provide nearly enough power, Wind power can't be relied on for more than 5 or 10% of our dupply, it is simply to unreliable and small-scale.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE]Maritimers long ago learn to distrust Ontario politicians when they claimed to want to 'set up a program' that would 'eventually' include all parts of the country. What tripe![/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You mean like the universal health care program we promised you? You never got that. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]The other part is hogwash as well and explains why the rest of the country has such lousy views of Ontario and how only a poorly designed electoral system keeps Ontario as the hub (well, magnificently designed if you're a political party from Ontario). [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Because the majority of Canada's population shouldn't have the majority of the seats? Actually I'd argue Ontario gets less than it deserves from Ottawa as well. We have huge needs that are ignored in our cities.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE]The 'have not' provinces get 1 billion dollars from the federal government. Per capita that pays for far fewer programs than are available in Ontario. As far as Ontario 'producing industry' - Why do you think it does? Why do you think every city in Ontario has a University whether it's Toronto or Peterborough. Don't even say 'because that's where the population is' because only 25% of Ontarians even go to Univesity, a lower percentage even than the states which surround it. The rest are foreign students and students from outside the province (who could be going to a local university if the funding were there) <br /> <br /> Where do you think research funding goes? Certainly not to New Brunswick that can't even afford a medical school. Industry is in Ontario because that's where the money is. The feds would just have to pony up some dough to build a facility in New Brunswick but that's 'too much investment' whereas Sudbury (population about the same as Saint John) now has a state of the art cancer centre, research facility, and medical school. <br /> <br /> Look also at how it got there. If you don't think that Ontario benefits then you haven't even BEEN to the maritimes. For the past fifty years, well, longer, but lets' keep it current, the maritimes essentially paid for health care, upbringing, and the education of kids who would eventually go to Ontario to work since that's where the jobs were. That's quite a cost savings when you don't have to raise the next generation of workers. Of course now that's even being cut loose now that Ontario (re:feds) have discovered that it's EVEN CHEAPER to get ready made workers from China, India, Pakistan, or whereever through immigration. This explains why transfer payments have been going down, down, down while federal surpluses have been going up up up.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> How did speculation by an outspoken Ontario minister become a tirade against the federal govevrnment <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/question.gif' alt='Question'>

[Marcarc]

It became a 'tirade' because Ontario doesn't cut a cheque for have not provinces and put it in the mail. It is the federal government that does that, so I was replying to your comments about Ontario. <br /> <br /> You could argue more seats if you want, that makes no difference, EVERY city in the country has needs that aren't met. Take a look at your average city in Ontario and compare it with Winnipeg, Regina, Halifax, or Saint John. <br /> <br /> There is no such thing as 'universal medical care'. If I lose my OHIP card and go to Manitoba then it doesn't whether I can prove I'm a canadian, I still have to pay. CHeck out the listing of services covered in each province, they are radically different. Neither is it a program run by the feds, they simply distribute the money and force provinces to match it whether they can afford to or not, the same as the pension plan. There is nothing 'universal' about it, you can claim that you don't pay in your province when you go through the door, but that's even true in the states where they must treat you by law (there is no such law in Canada).<br /> <br /> Ontario is a victim of it's own 'success', packing tons of people in with not enough power, decent water, or decent housing. Wind power can more than meet supply but it can't when it is CENTRALIZED, which is exactly what every government wants, because it makes money this way. For 35 grand I could set up a wind/solar system which would more than meet my demands, all I'd need is a interest/cost saving program such as are available all over the states to implement it. This would be repaid in the long run since all my costs would go to the system rather than a central energy bureaucracy. And we are by no means rich. I know of people who pay around $400 a month for energy, this would easily be recouped with such a system. It is easily affordable, the government simply doesn't want to lose its bureaucracy.<br /> <br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] It became a 'tirade' because Ontario doesn't cut a cheque for have not provinces and put it in the mail. It is the federal government that does that, so I was replying to your comments about Ontario. <br /> <br /> You could argue more seats if you want, that makes no difference, EVERY city in the country has needs that aren't met. Take a look at your average city in Ontario and compare it with Winnipeg, Regina, Halifax, or Saint John. <br /> <br /> There is no such thing as 'universal medical care'. If I lose my OHIP card and go to Manitoba then it doesn't whether I can prove I'm a canadian, I still have to pay. CHeck out the listing of services covered in each province, they are radically different. Neither is it a program run by the feds, they simply distribute the money and force provinces to match it whether they can afford to or not, the same as the pension plan. There is nothing 'universal' about it, you can claim that you don't pay in your province when you go through the door, but that's even true in the states where they must treat you by law (there is no such law in Canada).<br /> <br /> Ontario is a victim of it's own 'success', packing tons of people in with not enough power, decent water, or decent housing. Wind power can more than meet supply but it can't when it is CENTRALIZED, which is exactly what every government wants, because it makes money this way. For 35 grand I could set up a wind/solar system which would more than meet my demands, all I'd need is a interest/cost saving program such as are available all over the states to implement it. This would be repaid in the long run since all my costs would go to the system rather than a central energy bureaucracy. And we are by no means rich. I know of people who pay around $400 a month for energy, this would easily be recouped with such a system. It is easily affordable, the government simply doesn't want to lose its bureaucracy.<br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> 1 - I do find it repulsive that losing your OHIP card forces you to pay, I believe a rich country should treat anyone who walks in the door, but does this mean they would turn you away if you were homeless? In practice, would they actually turn you away simply because there is no law?<br /> <br /> 2 - I do realize that all cities have big problems. CBC mentioned that on the National last year.<br /> <br /> 3 - Regarding bureaucracy, I can see what you mean, and I do agree with some decentralized power, but to provide cheap, reliable power for industry or a big city like Toronto, it requires much more energy than for one home, so I can understand why they want to create a hydroelectric grid.<br /> <br /> <br /> --I also think more blame should be placed on the province of Quebec for childishly not letting the east coast send power through Quebec territory.

[Marcarc]

Quebec fares about as well as Ontario in 'praise' from the east. In fact, it has long been a sore point in Campbellton (which is across the river from Quebec) that people from Quebec are allowed to work in New Brunswick and bid on New Brunswick provincial contracts, yet the reverse isn't true in either case. I didn't know that they wouldn't let energy across the province, however, the east is having it's own energy problems and it's doubtful they would be sending much anyway (natural gas is a different story though).<br /> <br /> I agree that for large cities energy becomes more difficult, that's another reason why I support direct democracy, because people can actually choose to implement one idea or another rather than the government seemingly waiting for a crises. If we had such an incentive as was available in the states, not only could we provide our own power but we could add to the grid. If we can do then I have no doubt that the same is true in thousands of homes across the province. I've lately been reading a fair bit on energy policies and I'm pretty convinced that the main reason environmental solutions are ignored is to keep the centralized structure. These provide countless opportunities for slush funds and other diversions for government lackies, and of course the big payoff is when it is finally privatized. And we're yet to see a real concerted effort towards conservation.

[Rural]

"There is no such thing as 'universal medical care'. If I lose my OHIP card and go to Manitoba then it doesn't whether I can prove I'm a canadian, I still have to pay."<br /> <br /> There is no such thing as universal anything it seems, even the doctors license is no good from one province to another. We MUST start working together as a COUNTRY and forget all this interprovincial fighting, yes accommodations are necessary to assist some areas but until we start having a NATIONAL outlook and policies on energy, health care, licensing professionals and tradesmen etc, etc we will never be able to compete internationally. Good for Mr Duncan, with peak times being different across the country this makes makes more sense than exporting north south!<br /> <br />

[Marcarc]

While I agree with the above 'in theory', it is, unfortunately only 'in theory'. Canada has never functioned 'as a country', an intro course in provincial-federal legislation tells you that. But that really is la-la land, how can you expect the federal government to act 'as a country' when there's essentially five different players at the table. Energy is a perfect example, where Ontario and everybody jumps up in arms when Nfld and NS want a bigger share of the natural gas money. There are far more wealthy people in Ontario and Alberta than the rest of the country, not surprisingly they also have their own serious problems, this, in effect, keeps them from granting any serious investment in the have not areas of the country. As was said on this thread, inner cities in Ontario are crumbling, and everything 'seems' a mess. From where I sit in suburban Ontario things still are a hell of a lot better than out east. Alberta is the richest province, and is also the most miserly, I wonder why that is? <br /> <br /> Good luck to anybody trying to nationalize anything, it's been twenty years on national day care and that's only when it became a 'public issue'. To pitch direct democracy again, my belief is there has to be fundamental change at all levels of government in Canada. Like the states, the canadian government has essentially been 'taken over' by corporate governance. My argument is that it always has been run that way, but that's fine if nobody agrees with me, the point is that it certainly is obvious now-at least to people at this website. <br /> <br /> Energy conservation, of course, begins at home, and if people aren't doing at least 'as much as possible' then they have no right to gripe about government's attempt to satisfy their greedy lusts. We are energy pigs in Canada and unfortunately I think that may be a large percentage. I walk around at night and see dozens of outdoor lights on, even right under a streetlight. Sometimes it irks me so much I feel like sneaking around and unscrewing them all! Most people are apparantly unaware that break ins,by a HUGE margin, occur during the day, not at night. <br /> <br /> Finally, such an idea is literally a pipe dream now, Alberta would never go along with it, remember the NEP? Plus, many utilities are virtually privatized, which means NAFTA would play a factor. I mean really, we can't even get a national program that would label our food as non-GM or GM, that a national energy grid would be even contemplated is like planning what to do when we canadians own and operate the space station on the moon. To limit the criticism, obviously people here should know that I'm PRO government, just not the mechanisms that control it, which means its hard to argue in the abstract. Ideally, I don't see how one could argue against the utility of having a national grid where some feed into it, and other use it and pay for it. But again, how do you even remotely initiate such a plan?

[lesouris]

Okay, I just have two questions (and their subsquent answers):<br /> <br /> <br /> 1. Q. Who will pay for this grid?<br /> A. The tax payers of Ontario<br /> <br /> 2. Q. Who will benefit the most from this financially?<br /> A. The people of Nefoundland and Labrador, as long as they don't have Joey Smallwood as their chief negotiator. Newfoundland and Labrador would thus receive less equalization payments, and more federal money could go to people across the country.<br /> <br /> This may not be a national energy network in itself, but it will effectively create a giant energy grid serving 60% of the Canadian population (Ontario, Quebec, and Labrador), and that's a pretty good start.<br /> <br /> By the way, this new source of renewable energy would make Ontario's coal power generating stations obsolete, and some of Canada's worst polluters would shut down. If it helps to bring us closer to our Kyoto targets, then I'm all for it.<br /> <br /> My concerns in this case are that the dam in Labrador would have to be built on land claimed by the Innu, and that we don't really have any more suitable places to build hydro-electric dams, so we will still need to find different alternative sources of energy eventually, and I'm not too crazy about fossil fuels or nuclear power. Does anyone know how that harnassing the power of the wave is going? Afterall, the Maritimes would be the logical place to do that, wouldn't they?

[talus]

I can see marcarc's point and it had me wondering if any of the three national parties have any policies where a great majority of Canadians would say, "wow! thats a really good idea. Lets do it! You don't need an advertising agency to sell that kind of leadership and vision. <br /> <br /> This idea did that for me. It embraces patriotism, Kyoto targets, a cleaner environment, perhaps even the vision of scooting across the nation on an electric train or providing the power for industry in neglected provinces. Alas, I was only dreaming.