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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:09 pm
 


Perhaps one centre-left concern is that money spent on military is money that isn’t spent on health care, education, &c.?<br /> <br /> Maybe people on the right own more shares of defence-oriented corporations than people on the left do, and thus tend to be correspondingly more pleased when military budgets increase, regardless of their position on sovereignty arguments?<br />



Shatter your ideals upon the rock of Truth.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:04 am
 


We've had this conversation before. The reasons to be pacifist are numerous, there has never been an attack on canadian soil by a foreign power since the 1812 war. The idea that angry chinese or belligerent americans are going to come waltzing in has no basis in reality. Even after the second world war the cold war had Canada fighting, not against immigrants, but its own population. THe communist party was a political force, not a violent one, but still it was railroaded out of existence. The fear was exactly what happened-that socialists would gain political power in Canada. That in fact Canadians themselves would subscribe to it. <br /> <br /> The reasons to be militarist are plenty, however, the reality is the opposite of what people claim. In the international community Canada is now usually the bad guys from many canadians 'left' point of view. Intervention needs very clear justifications, not only have these not been met in Haiti and Afghanistan, even Bosnia, they have been shown to be illegal.<br /> <br /> Canadian intervention occurs not only by government but by lax export laws which sees Canada as a major military supplier to the US and others, including the dictators we are supposedly trying to rid the world of. Canadian is so far from 'pacifist' that I've never even read a single article critically examining the structure and function of our military.<br /> <br /> IF the NDP were so 'pacifist' they would be calling for withdrawal of canadian forces-they are not. They say 'we will only act with international authority', which ISN"T pacifism, just do a little research on Haiti. <br /> <br /> As for spending, nobody has said 'get rid of the military', which, incidentally, was a citizens initiative in Switzerland that everybody voted on (and rejected). Pacifism would of course mean dismantling the military, which I haven't heard from credible sources ANYWHERE. Even the NDP is far from advocating it. <br /> <br /> As we saw before, Canada's military spending is right along the same lines of the majority of countries in the world, so the argument that we are not spending as much as the US, Great Britain, or China-countries 10 times our size, makes no sense. The military offers excellent reimbursement for soldiers and job security, something few jobs in the country offer. If equipment is necessary, simply create jobs, industry and tax concessions to create them within the country. Virtually nobody in the maritimes is going to complain if they re-open the St.John shipbuilding port, and nobody in Manitoba is going to complain if they start building jeeps there. But THAT is not going to happen and we all know it.<br /> <br /> There is the stance of 'armed neutrality', such as the Swiss advocate, and the Scandinavian countries are semi-restricted to. Again, the idea of keeping canadian forces within Canada and only defending the national territory is FAR from even being contemplated in Parliament. The government doesn't even mention it as a possibility. The NDP's position is not exactly that since they don't define 'international' agreements. They could well be NORAD or NATO, neither of which are actually international, but as said, it's pretty easy fo r the NDP to say "we're pulling out of Haiti and Afghanistan". Nobody even in the party will say that, in fact during the last election on television they wouldn't even TALK about it.<br /> <br /> The reason PEOPLE are pacifist, just like the majority of people around the world are pacifist is simply because you don't NEED to justify inaction. You ALWAYS have to justify aggression, yet the world has become a place where the aggressors have simply run amuck and offer no justifications. When militarization means aggression, it's quite clear WHY pacifism's definition is changed to simply mean 'lack of aggression'. Armed neutrality is FAR from 'pacifist', in fact the Swiss are among the most militarist nations, just not in armed buildup.<br /> <br /> In Switzerland EVERY man is a permanent member of the militia, they each own a gun and uniform, they each practise target shooting at least once a month, and marksmanship is part of the recreational lifestyle. In fact, like ancient Greece, a banker's son will find himself fighting right next to a street vendor and realizes that in battle his life may well depend on him. That breeds a kind of nationalistic community mindset that is sorely lacking in Canada. In the second world war France fell in two weeks because they had a 'professional army', yet the german generals kept resisting openly attacking the swiss partly because of its geography, but also because they knew damn well that they'd have to fight a war for every square inch of Swiss soil against every swiss person who is brought up to defend with his life his country. Hitler wanted to be the 'butcher of the swiss', however, it's interesting to note that this tiny country in the middle of a hostile continent escaped two world wars relatively unscathed. Lots of people consider that 'cowardice' because they weren't on 'our side', but that just reflects personal opinion. <br /> <br /> However, even in Canada, where democracy is supposed to reign, you never even hear 'neutrality' mentioned. So pacifism is so far off the political radar that it can be said to not exist. Maybe somebody knows a guy who is a pacifist, or some local church groups are pacifist, that occurs in every nation, and is even rampant in the states. However, the NDP certainly isn't preaching it.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:12 am
 


Well said <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:24 am
 


<br /> Marcarc,<br /> <br /> You've done an excellent job of presenting the case.<br /> <br /> To go beyond this a bit the two priorities given by the current government for the Afghan mission are: "to protect the safety and prosperity of Canadians." This links defence and economic policy.<br /> <br /> The right tends to equate the prosperity of the country with the ability of the economic elite to capture a growing share of the wealth of the nation and the world. One of the most effective means for concentrating wealth is the development and use of a military industrial complex.<br /> <br /> There is no doubt that in the short term this kind of policy fuels the GDP and employs large numbers of workers in both production and in the military. Justification for just a policy comes from a long term commitment to militery interventions. The US has used the Iraq War and other operations to keep its economy moving forward, in the wake of corporate globlization which incouraged the movement of jobs to areas of cheaper labour for increased profits.<br /> <br /> The problem is that no nation can continue this kind of resource allocation indefinately. Heavy spending on the military industrial strategy coupled with globalization is driving the US towards financial disaster. I cannot understand why our government seems determined to move in the same direction but all indications so far suggest that is what they intend. <br /> <br /> The debate between right and left generally focuses on the role of government in society. The right have successfully, over the past couple of decades, framed the right-left debate as big verses small government. Where the real debate should be is on the allocation of resources. It is on this level that the NDP has failed because it has allowed the right to define the issue.<br /> <br /> It is time for those of us in the center to take back the debate and focus it on the question of allocation of resources. Do we want to allocate our resources, including human resources, to a military-industrial society dependent on perpetual war, the direction in which the US under George W. Bush is moving? Or do we want to promote an effective defence strategy for Canada coupled with other economic objectives such as providing a cleaner environment?<br />


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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2006 10:20 pm
 


Just to elaborate a little on one point that Marcarc made...<br /> <br /> The left does tend to be *more* pacifist than the right. The part that's missing in the discussion above is the divide between realism and idealism. The political right strives to appear realist and down-to-earth; their policies are supposedly simple and the most important thing is that they WORK IMMEDIATELY. The political left strives to appear idealist; they appeal to voters who generally look out for one another, believe strongly in the principles of communal responsibility and develop policies that may require short-term setbacks and personal sacrifice for the good of the whole. When it comes to war, the realists recognize that it is a necessity for an independent country to be militarized, but they tend to leave the issue at that and let the elected officials and bureaucracy determine when and what is necessary. The idealists tend to believe that if we set a good example by being pacifist, others will follow suit and we'll all live in peaceful harmony. Whoops, gettin a little over the top here...<br /> <br /> Anyways, just another way of looking at it I guess. I'm obviously taking extremes. And this is all sort of the from the perspective of the generally under-informed public - it's in no way meant to reflect the actual intentions or beliefs of the politicians or their puppeteers themselves...



Kory Yamashita

"What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." - Oliver Wendell Holmes


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:15 am
 


The vast majority of the world-right and left, are pacifist. 'Right' and 'left' have little to do with it. Idealism has little to do with it. Even in the states, the most violent nation in the world, most critics claim that the whole impetus to war has arisen because of the actions of only 20 people in the White House administration. That's why war rhetoric is always couched in terms of self defense.


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:50 am
 


Living right next door to a country that spends so much on military that kids there are crippled for life because they can't afford simple medical intervention, where 40% of the homeless are living in the streets because there is no medicare system, and any real social safety net is non existent, all because all the money is being soaked up by the military industrial theological complex,gives Canadians a totally justifyable resistance to following their ways.<br /> If the Canadian military were really concerned with defending Canada , we would be using our troops for arctic sovereignty patrols rather than supporting militarily , a country which doesn't recognize our sovereignty.<br /> Brent<br />



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