[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= michou] <br /> Thanks for wanting to keep us happy dino but Québécers aren't pets and there's no need really.<br /> <br /> As for Mario Dumont speaking sense, !!!! <br /> We should instead wish for Dumont that come next provincial elections, voters put him out of his political misery for good. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> You never refured what The Saint said. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'>

[michou]

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] <br /> You never refured what The Saint said. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Why should I ? All of it is just a bunch of scenarios he plays in his head. If the Saint wishes to, he can always rummage through some of my old posts. <br /> <br /> What we DO know is this :<br /> --- Québec is a nation without a state --- check<br /> --- There is a strong separatist movement in Québec --- check<br /> --- Canada is not a confederation of nations but a centralized federation. --- check<br /> --- When the separatist movement became political in the 1970's, about 8 % of Québécers adhered to it. Today, the number of adherents hover between 45 and 60 % of Québécers. --- check<br /> --- A majority of Québécers have once more elected a separatist political party to represent them at the federal level. --- check<br /> --- Close to 200,000 Québec artists and art technicians live off their cultural products in Québec and around the world. This is 200k out of a population of 7 million. --- check<br /> --- Québec art and culture are recognized and acclaimed internationally except in their own Canadian backyard. --- check<br /> --- Though Canada claims to be a bilingual nation, less than 9 % of its anglo citizens are bilingual while 40 % of Québécers speak and write both official languages. --- check. <br /> --- Two founding nations are recognized in Canada. One which has all the rights and another one who hasn't even signed the nation's Constitution because its basic rights are not addressed. --- check <br /> --- Two founding nations are recognized in Canada. Two separate and solitary founding nations who basically know very little about the other. --- check.<br /> <br /> What will happen to Canada and Québec when the latter achieves its independence ? Ask The Saint, not me. He seems to be doing just fine with all those different scenarios playing in his head. Hollywood wouldn't do any worse.

[The Saint]

Politics is a game of words and they are no less pertinent here than elsewhere. Truth is never an issue. Therefore the choice of words is calculated to win opinion facts aside. Look at the first sentence. Michou uses the word “know.” This implies irrefutable fact much like stating 2 + 2 = 4. Therefore michou is attempting to set the bounds of the discussion by passing of debatable points as fact through the use of the word “know.” So let’s see “What we DO know.”<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Québec is a nation without a state --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Debatable but if Quebec is a nation without a state then by your own reasoning michou so too are the natives in northern Quebec. In fact, if we wish to push the bounds further Quebecers are occupiers in a foreign land who never bothered to leave. Therefore Quebec is not a nation without a state but is in actuality an invasion force occupying a foreign people and their land. But this all depends on what definitions we wish to use.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- There is a strong separatist movement in Québec --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Here again the use of words is important. It is fact that there is a separatist movement in Quebec but the use of the word “strong” is debatable. Here it is used to win over Quebecers who do not support separation by saying “everyone else supports it so you should to.” It is also used to imply that separation is inevitable because support for it is “strong” and thus we should all accept it. Other than that it is illustrative, again, of separatist self-delusional behaviour and michou’s wishful thinking. A more accurate way to say it is that “there is a separatist movement in Quebec” but we all KNOW that separatists like to exaggerate.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Canada is not a confederation of nations but a centralized federation. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> This is an opinion and not a fact. This is tantamount to saying that “quebec is a nation without a state.”<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- When the separatist movement became political in the 1970's, about 8 % of Québécers adhered to it. Today, the number of adherents hover between 45 and 60 % of Québécers. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Depends how “separation” is defined. There are more definitions of Quebec separation than Celine Dion has shoes. In fact, in order to make it more palatable the last referendum question had to be softened and confusing so that more people would vote for it (hence the clarity act). And you still lost despite the “cheating” that some ballot counters indulged in that resulted in the rejection of some pro-federalist votes. Get your definition right and we’ll talk numbers.<br /> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- A majority of Québécers have once more elected a separatist political party to represent them at the federal level. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> A majority of Quebecers voted “NO” in the last referendum ---check<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Close to 200,000 Québec artists and art technicians live off their cultural products in Québec and around the world. This is 200k out of a population of 7 million. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> In other words 2.8% of Quebec’s population lives off their cultural products in Quebec and around the world. We can only assume a smaller percentage lives of their cultural products solely “around the world.” Not very impressive when it is stated this way does it michou. But I guess this is what you mean when you say Quebec culture is “EXPLODING” internationally. Language aside I still do not see what makes Quebec cultural products so distinct. And if you want to explode on the international scene do what every other international star does: speak English.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Québec art and culture are recognized and acclaimed internationally except in their own Canadian backyard. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> If you say so. I am going to take your word for it but show me some recognition and acclaim from say, oh I don’t know, Nepal maybe, or South Africa or Japan and you have a winner.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Though Canada claims to be a bilingual nation, less than 9 % of its anglo citizens are bilingual while 40 % of Québécers speak and write both official languages. --- check. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> So in other words a majority of Anglos and Francophones are not bilingual. I can see that. But how many bilingual Quebecers are Anglos living in Montreal and elsewhere? How many in Quebec’s rural townships are bilingual?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Two founding nations are recognized in Canada. One which has all the rights and another one who hasn't even signed the nation's Constitution because its basic rights are not addressed. --- check[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> I know what you mean. The native peoples of Canada have been bamboozled by the Europeans for so long. It is time to address their basic rights and get them to sign the nation’s Constitution.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Two founding nations are recognized in Canada. Two separate and solitary founding nations who basically know very little about the other. --- check. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You got to be kidding me. This is what fuels separatists sentiments in Quebec and what separatist “leaders” (for lack of a more apt word) feed of off. They need Quebecers to be ignorant of the rest of the country and they keep them ignorant. If efforts were made so that all of Canada got to know each other then Quebec separatism will decline. And what do you know about culture in the Maritimes or the prairies for that matter? Are these are not distinct cultures?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]What will happen to Canada and Québec when the latter achieves its independence ? Ask The Saint, not me. He seems to be doing just fine with all those different scenarios playing in his head. Hollywood wouldn't do any worse. [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We all play scenarios in our head. It’s called forecasting. They may not come true but they should be entertained nevertheless so as to make decisions for or against an unwritten future. I’ve already stated one scenario that could be read in an earlier reply but it is not the only one. It is up to us to accept or reject possibilities and maybe contribute one of our own for consideration. In any case we should not let our emotions guide us in our decision making and that is exactly what is fueling Quebec separatism. It is a romantic idea. That is why it is largely embraced by Quebec’s cultural elites and largely rejected by Quebec’s business elites. Our emotions can lead us to delusional thinking. Just look at the words michou and Samuel use. There is “PLENTY” of oil in the Gaspe” (Samuel), Quebec culture is “EXPLODING” internationally (michou) even though you’re better off winning the lottery than finding someone outside of Quebec who can name another entertainer from that province aside from Celine Dion. “Quebec has a distinct culture and language” but this is said in ignorance of the fact that the Inuit have a distinct culture and language, the First Nation’s peoples have a distinct culture and language (more so than Quebecers in fact), prairie farmers have a distinct culture and language, Maritimers have a distinct culture and language, southern Ontarians have a distinct culture and language. To me this is multiculturalism and not this idiotic “family of man” multiculturalism that is forced upon us by our government and will ruin Canada’s distinct cultures and languages.<br /> <br /> Here is another scenario for us to digest and I think it is the best one because it will solve two of Canada’s problems. Canadians are a wasteful people and so Canadians can make an island in the Atlantic using garbage. Separatists can then move there and call it Quebec. It will solve Canada’s landfill problems as well its Quebec separatist problems in one stroke and frankly an island of garbage is all that Quebec nationalists deserve anyways. And if they want more land all they have to do is open their mouths and talk like michou and Samuel and out will spill more trash they can use to expand their lands. This will save Canada from having to put up with a future independent Quebec blaming it for the mess Quebec separatists got themselves in.<br />

[Dino]

What we DO know is this :<br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Québec is a nation without a state --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> Why is it that if your a nation you must be a country? Aren't the metis a nation? the inuit? acadians? The very reason Quebec has never been recognized as a nation is because you would then imply that your being recognized as a country. So michou everytime you want to behave like it's the evil english speaking Canadians that won't recognize Quebec as a nation you might just want to realize that the very people who on two occasions fought to make sure you didn't get this recognition in the constitution was the Parti Quebecois.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- There is a strong separatist movement in Québec --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> After the election on january 23rd it reminded people like myself that separatism is fueled by the Liberal party of Canada. Without the Liberals in power Gilles Duceppe and his buddies have very little to complain about. Therefore if you have checked the polls you will see separation has fallen dramtically.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Canada is not a confederation of nations but a centralized federation. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> It was never designed to be a confederation of nations. Learn your history michou. It was designed to have provinces in a federation that makes up Canada. It wasn't designed to have a Canada and a Quebec.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- When the separatist movement became political in the 1970's, about 8 % of Québécers adhered to it. Today, the number of adherents hover between 45 and 60 % of Québécers. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> No the numbers don't "hover" around 45 and 60%. Last time I read a poll in La presse it was 35% and those 35% think that a separate country will let them keep the Canadian currency, citizenship, and oddles of resource money that come from the rest of the country. Let them ACTUALLY know what they will lose and that 35% support will fall even further.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- A majority of Québécers have once more elected a separatist political party to represent them at the federal level. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> Wrong. The majority of Quebecers in January voted for federalist parties. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Close to 200,000 Québec artists and art technicians live off their cultural products in Québec and around the world. This is 200k out of a population of 7 million. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> Good for them. If only they realized alot of the money that goes into that culture is paid for by the goverment of Canada. That means that english Canadians are paying for that culture that you speak of.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Québec art and culture are recognized and acclaimed internationally except in their own Canadian backyard. --- check[/QUOTE]<br /> Name me three Quebec artist who are famous internationally for speaking in thier own language?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Though Canada claims to be a bilingual nation, less than 9 % of its anglo citizens are bilingual while 40 % of Québécers speak and write both official languages. --- check. [/QUOTE]<br /> The reason bilingualism came into Canada was not to make people in Vancouver be fluent in french or people in Quebec city be fluent in english it was to put both languages on the same footing so that for example you go to court anywhere in Canada you can have it in english or french.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Two founding nations are recognized in Canada. One which has all the rights and another one who hasn't even signed the nation's Constitution because its basic rights are not addressed. --- check[/QUOTE] <br /> Michou you are a typical separatist. Victimize yourself so that you can justify your pathetic thoughts. Name me three rights that english speaking Canadians have that french Canadians don't have?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE BY= michou]--- Two founding nations are recognized in Canada. Two separate and solitary founding nations who basically know very little about the other. --- check.[/QUOTE]<br /> One of the reasons that this is actually true is because of globalization and the idiots in Ottawa who continue to support globalization. It will always fascinate me how the Liberal party of Canada goes around the country every election talking about how much they "love" Canada and how they are so against separatists and want to see a united country. Too bad none of our so called "patriotic" politicians have ever thought that an extremely easy way to keep Canada united would be through culture! Having english Canada and french Canada actually have things that connect us as a country!!!!!!<br /> <br /> So michou your right, english and french Canada know so little about each other but that has more to do with globalizations and the losers we elect into office who keep destroying english Canada by letting America completely wipe us out all while Quebec remains untouched by this cultural invasion by America.<br /> <br /> <br />

[gaulois]

"Quebec remaining untouched by this cultural invasion by America"???<br /> <br /> Not sure about this at all... Quebec has its fair share of americanization. Last time I drove in Quebec City (my birth town!) on the "ring road" aka Le Boulevard Metropolitain/Autoroute de la Capitale, it looked just like the US: gas stations, fast food outlets, shopping centres and movie theatres. Yoque...<br /> <br /> The language certainly helps as a barrier but many are trying to eradicate this barrier. Don't these language laws make more sense now???<br />

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] "Quebec remaining untouched by this cultural invasion by America"???<br /> <br /> Not sure about this at all... Quebec has its fair share of americanization. Last time I drove in Quebec City (my birth town!) on the "ring road" aka Le Boulevard Metropolitain/Autoroute de la Capitale, it looked just like the US: gas stations, fast food outlets, shopping centres and movie theatres. Yoque...<br /> <br /> The language certainly helps as a barrier but many are trying to eradicate this barrier. Don't these language laws make more sense now???<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I don't think that language laws have anything to do with malls, gas stations--maybe Holloywood movie theatres.<br /> <br /> I would honestly not worry about gas stations and malls. Those are not just in America, they are everywhere....the shopping mall was actually pioneered by Canadians retailers not American.<br /> <br /> Trends in architecture and business like big malls go in cycles. So do lifestyles like the car culture. Eventually something new will develop but I do respect the fact that Quebec wants to be different than America....but I'd keep the gas stations for now and worry more about some of that awful modern architecture.... <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

[Dino]

I agree Quebec is quite Americanized but what I was trying to imply was that english Canada is much much worse. <br /> <br /> I agree with you Pertrubed that Quebec actually wants to be different from America maybe one day Conservative and Liberal voters might start caring too about the effects of americanization is having on all of Canada.