[samuel]

Thanks for that, michou.<br /> <br /> Monsieur Attali has grasped the immigration issues with remarkable precision. The liberal school of thought has worked long and hard to foster this conformist attitude Canadains have towards Liberal immigration policies and for a foreigner to sound the alarm bells shows you how prevalent it is. I wish I had the English skills to translate him adequately, it is so incredibly accurate.

[Brother Jonathan]

I think that you’re underestimating your English skill; it’s certainly far better than my French! Here’s my attempt at a translation: I know that it’s rough at best (e.g. the direct translation for <i>autismes</i> didn’t seem to have the same feel in English, so I substituted <i>isolations</i>), so kindly let me know where I’ve fallen short of the mark.<br><br /> <hr><br /> “The only thing that distinguishes Canada from the United States is Québec”<br /> Thursday, 15th June<br /> François Cardinal<br /> <i>La Presse</i>, Mont-Tremblant<br /> <br /> Canada has dangerously americanised itself over the past few years; so much so that the only thing that differentiates Canada and the United States today is the presence of Québec, according to Jacques Attali, former advisor of French president François Mitterand.<br /> <br /> In an interview with <i>La Presse</i> at the fringe of a sizable conference held in Mont-Tremblant on the future of Canada, the founder of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development made scathing comments while speaking about the direction that favours the country more and more.<br /> <br /> Some minutes earlier, before a panel composed of federalist élite, former ministers, MPs, lawyers, businessmen, and academics, Mr Attali played the <i>provocateur</i>: “I don’t want to meddle in internal Canadian politics, but it seems to me that the only thing that distinguishes Canada from the United States is Québec.” The reaction, at minimum, was icy. Boos were even heard.<br /> <br /> <b>Bilingual United States</b><br /> <br /> “Seen from afar, what is Canada exactly? A bilingual United States,” specified Mr Attali in the interview. “Québec brings a more European dimension to Canada, and thereby allows it to think of itself more as a society that has a more advanced sense of solidarity than that of the United States.”<br /> <br /> “Without Québec, the Canadian identity would be far more difficult to define in relation to the rest of North America,” he added. “Anyway, there won’t be a Canadian identity as long as there isn’t a ‘Canadian dream’ recognised by all.”<br /> <br /> The former Liberal ministers John Manley and Ann McLellan, co-chairs of the conference <i>Canada 2020</i> (a federalist discussion group), immediately dissociated from these remarks.<br /> <br /> “It’s always a challenge for Canada to protect a kind of independence,” indicated Mr Manley. “Especially since the influence of the American media, television, film is very large. Québec is certainly an important difference, but it’s not the only difference. The values and attitudes of Canadians are very different from those of Americans.”<br /> <br /> “I believe that our commitment to multiculturalism also makes us different,” noted Ms McLellan. “We are a mosaic and they are a melting pot. I believe that we have a higher standard of living when compared to the Americans as well as to the French.”<br /> <br /> <b>Canadian change of course</b><br /> <br /> It’s in seeing rising support of Canadians for a two-tier health care system and noticing the absence of a real policy of integration that Jacques Attali has noted a change in direction that seems to want to take on the country.<br /> <br /> Elsewhere this morning, the president of Environics, Michael Adams, has maintained that Canadians are favouring more and more a health care system which has a place for the private sector. From 2002 to 2005, support for this idea has climbed from 20% to 31%.<br /> <br /> “The future of Canada will very much depend on the health care system,” believes Mr Attali. “If it goes much more toward the search for efficiency through privatisation, then the long-term evolution of Canada won’t be different from that of the United States. What will happen with health care will happen with all of the other principles.”<br /> <br /> <b>Immigration</b><br /> <br /> The question of integrating immigrants also will have an important impact on the future of Canada, according to the former adviser of Mitterand. He believes moreover that right now, “the beautiful utopia of Canada” is threatened.<br /> <br /> “For such a nation, and Canada in particular, to remain open, it must have a strong identity,” he said. “The fact that Canada is a juxtaposition of many different minorities isn’t necessarily fortunate, because it can create a juxtaposition of isolations. That doesn’t create a strong identity and can transform a utopia into a Tower of Babel.”<br /> <br /> Canada takes this fear seriously, according to him, because of the return to ‘nomadism’. Over the course of the next three decades, the population of the planet will increase by 50%, from six billion to nine billion people. At the same time, the aging populations will place considerable demands on the marketplace, and thus bring about a very large international mobility.<br /> <br /> <b>Unreasonable accommodation</b><br /> <br /> For Jacques Attali, former adviser of President François Mitterand, Québec is too tolerant in the face of requests from members of different religious communities.<br /> <br /> “A society can disappear in too much tolerance,” he believes. “Within tolerance, there can be at the same time the fact of letting others establish their principles and the fact of their proselytising those principles … and then, there is no longer a place of welcome, but a hunting ground.”<br /> <br /> Making notable reference to the case of the kirpan and of the Muslims who have benefited from preferential treatment in a Brossard school for taking their swimming test, Mr Attali considers that Québec would have had to show a very strong “firmness”.<br /> <br /> “For all of those who continue to protect the right to exercise their religion, the right of having an independent religious life is absolutely indispensable. It follows, then, that in a non-religious life, a differentiation based on a religious concept of what should be secular, that is to say modesty, should on the other hand be refused,” he said.<br /> <br><br /> <hr><br /> As an aside, is <i>melting-pot</i> proper French for “melting pot” in the immigration context? It seems like “melting pot” is really just an awkward English translation of <i>caquelon</i> …<br>

[samuel]

Thank you Brother Jonathan, your comprehension of French is excellent. As for the journalist's quoting the term "melting-pot" literally, I think it's mostly a case of laziness on his part. Although there is no exact term in French, he could of said "politique d'intégration absolue" or "creuset démographique", which would of better served the French readership in my opinion.

[gaulois]

I wonder how Mr Attali is qualified to make such outragious statement. I have had numerous extended holiday&work stays *throughout* the US and throughout Canada and I find these statements *very* offensive event though they may hold *some* truth. There seems to be an appetite for these simple generalisations that box things up for easy consumption for those that cannot think for themselves. If I must myself make these simple generalisations, I will state that there is as much crazy consumerism in the US, Canada and Quebec and would totally downplay the relevance of these geopolitical borders when the majority of people want "free trade". What was Quebec overall position on this BTW ? Maudite globalisation indeed.<br /> <br /> I find it odd that my many of my former Quebecois countrymates spend so much energy at repressing the fundamentals of Canadian identity (-vs- the US) and they get all bent out of shape when Canadians do the same to them. <br /> <br /> As an example of excessive consumerism in Quebec, just look at the ring road around Quebec City and I find that mighty depressing. Could just as well be on the ring road around Houston or Philadelphia. Look at the "malls", the IKEAs, the MacDo, the donuts shops, etc... Not all that different, is it?<br /> <br /> Consumerism is killing our identities. And so is propaganda when it attempts to stop people to think for themselves. Pushing this propaganda reflects to me the lack of confidence of Québécois in their sovereignty project. Sovereignists would be far better off to stick to the high road of their collective project which is mighty fine by me. <br /> <br /> Why piss off the other party event though there may be *some* truth to the allegations? <br /> <br /> Vive is about Canadian sovereignty and am not sure how this story could be better used on this site. The Quebecois citizen movement initiative to discuss sovereignty (away from the &%& political parties) sounds like something much better to promote on Vive. Would be much better Québécois belly-gazing IMHO, if we must have some to prove that "Canada is only different from US due to Quebec" <br /> <br /> adbusters.org and Greenpeace did not come out of the US or Quebec. Did it??? Recognizing the distinctivess of the canadian identity would go a long way IMHO to progress on Quebec sovereignty. Perhaps the Québécois should give a rest to their own bellygazing, with all my respects for the good cause. <br />

[michou]

Is Jacques Attali exagerating ? I'm not so sure gaulois. <br /> Put aside the McDo's, Burger Kings, KFC etc... (which can be found around the world), Canadians culturally consume in majority American products. In terms of values, looking at Canadian sites such as Vive or Rabble, they are the exception to the rule while others like CKA is the norm. <br /> In terms of immigration, Québec is more inclusive and its processes are better adapted (though far from perfect) into integrating immigrants into their new collective than Canada's in general. Québecers' strong negative reaction to the courts allowing kirpans in schools were basically pointed across Canada as being a racist one. The integration process by Harper's government into the American mass is constantly making inroads and as Jacques Attali stated, it is a dangerous road this government is taking. Is Canada there yet ? Not by any means but it could slide very easily and quickly, so could even Québec if Charest is kept where he is for much longer.

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] I wonder how Mr Attali is qualified to make such outragious statement. I have had numerous extended holiday&work stays *throughout* the US and throughout Canada and I find these statements *very* offensive event though they may hold *some* truth. There seems to be an appetite for these simple generalisations that box things up for easy consumption for those that cannot think for themselves. If I must myself make these simple generalisations, I will state that there is as much crazy consumerism in the US, Canada and Quebec and would totally downplay the relevance of these geopolitical borders when the majority of people want "free trade". What was Quebec overall position on this BTW ? Maudite globalisation indeed.<br /> <br /> I find it odd that my many of my former Quebecois countrymates spend so much energy at repressing the fundamentals of Canadian identity (-vs- the US) and they get all bent out of shape when Canadians do the same to them. <br /> <br /> As an example of excessive consumerism in Quebec, just look at the ring road around Quebec City and I find that mighty depressing. Could just as well be on the ring road around Houston or Philadelphia. Look at the "malls", the IKEAs, the MacDo, the donuts shops, etc... Not all that different, is it?<br /> <br /> Consumerism is killing our identities. And so is propaganda when it attempts to stop people to think for themselves. Pushing this propaganda reflects to me the lack of confidence of Québécois in their sovereignty project. Sovereignists would be far better off to stick to the high road of their collective project which is mighty fine by me. <br /> <br /> Why piss off the other party event though there may be *some* truth to the allegations? <br /> <br /> Vive is about Canadian sovereignty and am not sure how this story could be better used on this site. The Quebecois citizen movement initiative to discuss sovereignty (away from the &%& political parties) sounds like something much better to promote on Vive. Would be much better Québécois belly-gazing IMHO, if we must have some to prove that "Canada is only different from US due to Quebec" <br /> <br /> adbusters.org and Greenpeace did not come out of the US or Quebec. Did it??? Recognizing the distinctivess of the canadian identity would go a long way IMHO to progress on Quebec sovereignty. Perhaps the Québécois should give a rest to their own bellygazing, with all my respects for the good cause.[/QUOTE]<br /> Bellygazing? You fail to recognize that this view comes not from a Quebecer, but a foreigner. <br /> <br /> Consumerism is a trait shared among people since the dawn of human civilization and absolutely exists in Québec. But since you bring it up, consumerism in Québec IS in fact distinct from the RoC. Corporations have understood this decades ago which is why you will hardly notice a difference between, say, Wal-Mart advertising strategies in the USA/RoC, but a completely different approach in Québec. You can replace Wal-Mart with Canadian Tire or whatever corporation you can think of, nothing like capitalism to get at the core of it.<br /> <br /> Btw you can and most certainly have taken offense by it, but it's just a fact Canadians still choose to view as "superiority posturing" rather than acknowledge it for what it is, a North American cultural différence. Instead of celebrating it, Canadians continue to attack it and cheer everytime news of Québec being undermined by its surroundings hits the media.

[gaulois]

I think you are most unfairly lumping "Canadians" as one pack. I will remind you that more Canadians voted against Harper than for. And also that the really interesting stuff typically does not happen amongst the masses at first.<br /> <br /> It is unfair to lump a group we don't understand just as if I lumped the Quebecois in one pack, or the Americans in one. Most Americans also did not vote for Bush (we have plenty of evidence that this last US election was stolen!). Ditto for the muslims, les "français", etc.<br /> <br /> Our brains have been conditioned by our "leaders" for grouping what we don't quite appreciate as one, stereotype, etc... And that is how leaders get in fact elected. And then we complain of the evils of la pensée unique... <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> <br /> Why do we keep promoting it? Even if the article was not written by a Québécois, repeating it without better contextualization demontrate du nombrilisme aigu. Pensée unique de nombrilisme FHQ? Peut-être.

[empson7]

[QUOTE]“The only thing that distinguishes Canada from the United States is Québec”<br /> Thursday, 15th June<br /> François Cardinal<br /> <i>La Presse</i>, Mont-Tremblant<br /> <br /> <b>Canada has dangerously americanised itself over the past few years;</b> so much so that the only thing that differentiates Canada and the United States today is the presence of Québec, according to Jacques Attali, former advisor of French president François Mitterand.<br /> <br /> ...the founder of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development made scathing comments while speaking about the direction that favours the country more and more.<br /> <br /> Some minutes earlier, before a panel composed of federalist élite, former ministers, MPs, lawyers, businessmen, and academics, Mr Attali played the <i>provocateur</i>: “I don’t want to meddle in internal Canadian politics, but it seems to me that the only thing that distinguishes Canada from the United States is Québec.” [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> What an insulting idiot...<br /> <br /> Oh well Mr. Attali please allow me to 'meddle' if I can...<br /> <br /> Why so concerned about mulit-culturalism? Are your suburbs still burning from the anger of FRENCH citizens who left racists (come on down Regis Debray!)have oppressed through discriminatory racist laws? Funny stripping people from there basic rights under the claims of 'national security' seems very very American to this foreigner. So just like The English Language in the US is under threat by Mexicans, I guess French Civilization is also under threat by the Muslim teenagers wearing a head scarves, huh? Americanized indeed...<br /> <br /> Yes Mr. Attali--we would love to hear your comments about Canada. Tell us more about how our elections sport contests between ultra-fascists (come on down Jean Le Pen) and ultra-right conservatives. How Republican of you!!<br /> <br /> Sure Canada is getting too close to the US? But Mr. Attali, your country seemed more than happy to oblige the US during the Haitian coup? Funny out of the EU Three, it's France that is the biggest supporter for American sanctions against Iran? <br /> <br /> Interesting Mr. Attali that the only thing you seem to know or like about Canada is the part of Canada that is most like your arrogant zenophobic country; racist Quebec.<br /> <br /> So one of the biggest globalist corporate hacks on the planet is saying Canada is becoming too American? Moi Pardon... <br /> <br /> Mr. Attali--I will worry about Canada becoming too close to the US when Disney opens a theme park here...asshole<br />

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] I think you are most unfairly lumping "Canadians" as one pack. I will remind you that more Canadians voted against Harper than for. And also that the really interesting stuff typically does not happen amongst the masses at first.[/QUOTE]<br /> What's Harper got to do with it? In fact, if anything, Stephen Harper is surprisingly demonstrating an intellectual openness towards Québec. Guess he was expecting to find anti-Western bigots here, but found reasonable people instead. Rather than pretend he knows anything about Québec issues, he simply says he doesn't and asks for clarifications or explanations. Unlike Liberals and their "faux français" politicians and bureaucrats who've kept Canada in the dark pretending they're the only ones to know anything about Québec while betraying both sides of the isle.<br /> <br /> Yes I do lump a majority of Canadians as despicable vultures, who else undermines and cheers the demise of their own countrymen?

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Yes I do lump a majority of Canadians as despicable vultures, who else undermines and cheers the demise of their own countrymen?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Good luck promoting Quebec sovereignty in the ROC with this kind of attitude. What if I lumped every sovereignist québécois as lacking confidence in themselves to the point they have to despise groups they don't quite understand. Quebec sovereignty would not be able to succeed on such a basis. Would it?<br /> <br /> Ditto for the Canadians in relationship to their neigbours south. I certainly see some of that on Vive too. Confident Canadian sovereignists do not despise the Americans as despicable vultures. Tell me what group will succeed first in being truly sovereign?

[samuel]

Brother Jonathan,<br /> <br /> I often read your asking questions and showing a genuine interest in Canadian politics, but seldom see you offering an opinion. I'm curious, as an American what is your general view of Canadian politics in reference to Québec issues and to Canadian immigration policies?

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= empson7]What an insulting idiot...<br /> <br /> Oh well Mr. Attali please allow me to 'meddle' if I can...<br /> <br /> Why so concerned about mulit-culturalism? Are your suburbs still burning from the anger of FRENCH citizens who left racists (come on down Regis Debray!)have oppressed through discriminatory racist laws? Funny stripping people from there basic rights under the claims of 'national security' seems very very American to this foreigner. So just like The English Language in the US is under threat by Mexicans, I guess French Civilization is also under threat by the Muslim teenagers wearing a head scarves, huh? Americanized indeed...<br /> <br /> Yes Mr. Attali--we would love to hear your comments about Canada. Tell us more about how our elections sport contests between ultra-fascists (come on down Jean Le Pen) and ultra-right conservatives. How Republican of you!!<br /> <br /> Sure Canada is getting too close to the US? But Mr. Attali, your country seemed more than happy to oblige the US during the Haitian coup? Funny out of the EU Three, it's France that is the biggest supporter for American sanctions against Iran? <br /> <br /> Interesting Mr. Attali that the only thing you seem to know or like about Canada is the part of Canada that is most like your arrogant zenophobic country; racist Quebec.<br /> <br /> So one of the biggest globalist corporate hacks on the planet is saying Canada is becoming too American? Moi Pardon... <br /> <br /> Mr. Attali--I will worry about Canada becoming too close to the US when Disney opens a theme park here...asshole[/QUOTE]<br /> Why would they open a theme park in Canada? Canadians flock to Florida all year round and Disneyland tops the list of destinations for Canadians with kids. Isn't it Disney that owns the rights to Canada's iconic RCMP attire, Winnipeg the Pooh etc.etc. FYI, 90% of the cultural products English Canadians consume are American.<br /> <br /> Another mouth foaming conformist, take it back to Liberal headquarters when you do purchase that membership card.

[gaulois]

[QUOTE BY= Samuel] Why would they open a theme park in Canada? Canadians flock to Florida all year round and Disneyland tops the list of destinations for Canadians with kids. Isn't it Disney that owns the rights to Canada's iconic RCMP attire, Winnipeg the Pooh etc.etc. FYI, 90% of the cultural products English Canadians consume are American.<br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> Were you referring to all these Québécois that we find in Florida everywhere? And, talking of "cultural products", aren't québécois not enjoying plenty of really bad american hockey?<br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/redface.gif' alt='Oops!'> <br /> <br /> <i>Seauré</i>, j'ai papu m'rtenir.<br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br />

[samuel]

[QUOTE BY= gaulois]Were you referring to all these Québécois that we find in Florida everywhere? And, talking of "cultural products", aren't québécois not enjoying plenty of really bad american hockey?[/QUOTE]<br /> I'm not the one saying there's nothing to worry about for lack of a Disney theme park. A hypocritical understatement the likes I've never seen considering the circumstances and statistics.

[gaulois]

I would hate to put it that way but often Québec is more americanized than the ROC!!! It rubs me the wrong way when you depict Québécois as all holier than the pope in regards to resisting american influence, consumerism, etc... That is delusional.<br /> <br /> Why not readily admit that Canada and Quebec share many sovereignty issues and resisting the american influence and globalisation is the most vital one. This statement was not intended whatsoever in downplaying legitimate claims of Quebec to its own sovereignty.