[ShepherdsDog]

It's a question that's on the mind of many people. Prior to his death many people said that the NDP ended up as official opposition only because they had a demagogue for a leader and many of the vote's cast for them were protest votes against the Conservcatives, Liberals and Bloc Quebecois, rather than an endorsement of the policies of the NDP(hence all the unknown first timers winning against long time MPs).

As was mentioned in an article, the orange posters covering Quebec were almost exclusively Jack Layton posters and very few had pictures of the local NDP candidates....many of whom had deep roots in the BQ and PQ, including the current interim leader.

Personally, I think that the NDP is going to be a one hit wonder and will be relegated back to third party staus once the Liberals get their house back in order. Jack was one of the legs holding them up, the good leg. The protest vote, the gimp leg, is depending on the fickleness of the Quebec electorate. One man's personality can't be what they rely on to keep them where they are. They need something else to keep them relevant.

Without Jack, the NDP is going to have to rely on their message to keep the party afloat, and personally I believe most Canadians, including those who vote for the NDP provincially, don't trust the federal party and its fringe agendas. Then, there is the cozying up with the separatists. This will go over like a fart in a diving helmet with most NDP supporters outside of Quebec, bleeding support to the staunchly federalist Greens or the Liberals if it continues.

These are merely my opinions, and I thought I'd keep them out of the tribute threads. We've witnessed the sudden demise of Jack layton over the past two months. While his death is not a mortal wound for the NDP as a party, can they ever hope to reach the heights they've reached without his charisma, based solely on their policies? It's pretty obvious that the CPC didn't rely on Harper's charisma to win them a majority.

[Gunnair]

I have to agree. This was the party that Jack built and it survived mostly based on his personality and vision. None of the potential leaders jockeying for position have the personality and leadership to manage this party with all of its varied political ideologies and wide eyed rookies.
I might be wrong, but come September we might see the beginning of a party meltdown made worse by a potentially nasty leadership race.

[Bruce_the_vii]

While I don't think the NDP is centrist enough to move up in Canada it may last in Quebec. The role it plays there, which I don't understand, may last some time. The Credite Est (sp) lingered for some elections in Quebec and the NDP protest vote may also. They could be the official opposition on that basis for the next election or two. The elevating the NDP to official opposition is a Quebec voter coup as much as a Jack Layton achievement.

[martin14]

No, I think Gunnair is right, the NDP will tear itself apart over leadership.

It will be a rather nasty bloodbath in spite of the ' Remember Jack ' side.


It is for the Liberals to decide how far the Dippers will fall.

[Gunnair]

martin14 martin14:

No, I think Gunnair is right, the NDP will tear itself apart over leadership.

It will be a rather nasty bloodbath in spite of the ' Remember Jack ' side.


It is for the Liberals to decide how far the Dippers will fall.

There certainly is the speculation of a Lib/Dipper merger if only they can get past the Bloc element in their orange clothing. Any merger would likley just renew the Bloc or create some other Quebec first fringe protest party.

[Dragon-Dancer]

I think that it's too soon to sound the death knell. We don't yet know who will try to fill Jack's shoes. It won't be easy but he had some pretty good people around him who may just surprise us. I think the real test will be how well they present themselves working as official opposition. They won't be able to truly oppose the will of the Cons but in this sort of situation it's all about appearances.

[Macguyver]

I totally disagree. I think the socialist movement has just started. When everyday Canadians recognize that their lives are better off when the government is not a doormat for the rich and a feeding ground for the big corporations – more people will join and vote left.

But of course it is up to the NDP to take advantage of the position that they have in Ottawa. They have some new voices, and if the messages are right and they do their homework they can take some big swings at the parties that have dominated parliament for so long.

Jack was a good man, so was Ed Broadbent and so was Tommy Douglas. These are the roots of the NDP and even though they moved on, the vision that they created and fought for is still evolving into something that took shape in the last general election and will continue to take shape under new, and maybe even better, leadership.

It is easy to dismiss the NDP’s philosophies and success as a flash on the pan, but when Canadians realize that, like Medicare – the crown jewel of Tommy Douglas’ socialism, the government can govern for the majority of the people and protect its weak and vulnerable.

The New NDP of today have work to do.

1) The fresh voices need to get a game plan together, good communications staff and send out a strong, consistent message that the NDP are working for the people, not the corporations and not the rich.

2) They need to do a ton of legwork and expose the money trail that keeps the PC’s and Liberal campaign coffers full. The PC’s raise a shitload of money, and you can bet that a huge chunk of that is from corporations that are also taking a fair chunk of tax dollars and making huge profits based on government policy.


3) They need to sell the fact that capitalism and the free markets have failed many Canadians, and that moving closer to the American model is a mistake. We need to insulate ourselves from the greed and fraud that germinate a free market that has no oversight and relies on industry to police itself.

4) The New NDP also have some work to do to come up with creative initiatives that will help sell their policy and also pay for the programs that will help the average Canadians . They need to take some business courses and see how the markets work, how trade works and how the free market system runs in the real world. Then they need to take that information and tax the shit out of the multinationals, the ultra rich and the billion dollar corporations and banks. They need to do their homework and understand the positives and negatives of these sorts of taxes.


5) In the end if the NDP are going to move forward they need to set some milestones and create some achievements that show average Canadians that Socialism is not the dark dangerous boogyman that the private corporations and the rich would have you believe. They need to take a page from Warren Buffet and not be afraid of taxing the rich. And they need to hire the right people who can balance the needs of industry properly with the needs of Canadians.

If the NDP play their cards right I think there is a great chance that their success can continue. They have every opportunity in the world to do some real damage to the PC’s by sending in the dogs to sniff out and expose who the governing party is really working for, put a wedge between the people who really benefit from the PC’s platform and the other 95% of Canadians and then use all their weight to pry the votes away from the right toward the left.

The PC’s need to raise millions to “sell” us their platform. The NDP only needs to expose the rot beneath the feet of the right, and the votes will come from the sky like the leaves in the fall.

[ShepherdsDog]

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Were you a comedy writer?

[Mustang1]

Macguyver Macguyver:

I totally disagree. I think the socialist movement has just started. When everyday Canadians recognize that their lives are better off when the government is not a doormat for the rich and a feeding ground for the big corporations – more people will join and vote left.

But of course it is up to the NDP to take advantage of the position that they have in Ottawa. They have some new voices, and if the messages are right and they do their homework they can take some big swings at the parties that have dominated parliament for so long.

Jack was a good man, so was Ed Broadbent and so was Tommy Douglas. These are the roots of the NDP and even though they moved on, the vision that they created and fought for is still evolving into something that took shape in the last general election and will continue to take shape under new, and maybe even better, leadership.

It is easy to dismiss the NDP’s philosophies and success as a flash on the pan, but when Canadians realize that, like Medicare – the crown jewel of Tommy Douglas’ socialism, the government can govern for the majority of the people and protect its weak and vulnerable.

The New NDP of today have work to do.

1) The fresh voices need to get a game plan together, good communications staff and send out a strong, consistent message that the NDP are working for the people, not the corporations and not the rich.

2) They need to do a ton of legwork and expose the money trail that keeps the PC’s and Liberal campaign coffers full. The PC’s raise a shitload of money, and you can bet that a huge chunk of that is from corporations that are also taking a fair chunk of tax dollars and making huge profits based on government policy.


3) They need to sell the fact that capitalism and the free markets have failed many Canadians, and that moving closer to the American model is a mistake. We need to insulate ourselves from the greed and fraud that germinate a free market that has no oversight and relies on industry to police itself.

4) The New NDP also have some work to do to come up with creative initiatives that will help sell their policy and also pay for the programs that will help the average Canadians . They need to take some business courses and see how the markets work, how trade works and how the free market system runs in the real world. Then they need to take that information and tax the shit out of the multinationals, the ultra rich and the billion dollar corporations and banks. They need to do their homework and understand the positives and negatives of these sorts of taxes.


5) In the end if the NDP are going to move forward they need to set some milestones and create some achievements that show average Canadians that Socialism is not the dark dangerous boogyman that the private corporations and the rich would have you believe. They need to take a page from Warren Buffet and not be afraid of taxing the rich. And they need to hire the right people who can balance the needs of industry properly with the needs of Canadians.

If the NDP play their cards right I think there is a great chance that their success can continue. They have every opportunity in the world to do some real damage to the PC’s by sending in the dogs to sniff out and expose who the governing party is really working for, put a wedge between the people who really benefit from the PC’s platform and the other 95% of Canadians and then use all their weight to pry the votes away from the right toward the left.

The PC’s need to raise millions to “sell” us their platform. The NDP only needs to expose the rot beneath the feet of the right, and the votes will come from the sky like the leaves in the fall.

Yeah...good luck getting Ontario to vote NDP for awhile - political memories can be long ones, especially the bad ones.

[Bruce_the_vii]

Well, the thing of it is tax increases are as popular as mud. The middle class family, the working class family has a budget that is tight and finding room for a tax increase would be difficult. I've talked to a lot of people about this. You could put a sur tax on the rich and professionals but the working class is hard pressed to find $50 to go to the pub. The status quo is pretty stable.

[eureka]

There is never a bloodletting over the NDP leaderships and I don't think there will be this time. The Party has several very good potential leaders among its veterans and none of these has shown to be other than a team player.

The success in Quebec did not surprise me. Layton has cultivated a Quebec friendly image from the start and it was not such a swing for all those federalist, left leaning members of the Bloc to turn to the NDP. The great majority of Quebeckers are not Separatists or Sovereignists. In the past, surveys showed that the actual support for Sovereignty was never higher than 11%.

I think that much of the NDP support will hold until the Liberals get their act together. Then it remains to be seen.

Personally, I gave up on the NDP years ago as it moved to the centre under Layton who talked always of the Middle classes and "working families," ignoring its base in the "underclasses." That and its Quebec policies and the Senate turned me away as well as others that I know.

However, as a political prospect, the policies now are more likely to attract voters. But, when one takes into account that the unemployed and the poor do not vote, one has to question whether the NDP has lost its Socialist roots. I do not think it is correct to call it a Social Democratic Party anymore. The essence of that is a belief in equality. The NDP does not promote that now.

[FieryVulpine]

Macguyver Macguyver:

I totally disagree. I think the socialist movement has just started. When everyday Canadians recognize that their lives are better off when the government is not a doormat for the rich and a feeding ground for the big corporations – more people will join and vote left.

But of course it is up to the NDP to take advantage of the position that they have in Ottawa. They have some new voices, and if the messages are right and they do their homework they can take some big swings at the parties that have dominated parliament for so long.

Jack was a good man, so was Ed Broadbent and so was Tommy Douglas. These are the roots of the NDP and even though they moved on, the vision that they created and fought for is still evolving into something that took shape in the last general election and will continue to take shape under new, and maybe even better, leadership.

It is easy to dismiss the NDP’s philosophies and success as a flash on the pan, but when Canadians realize that, like Medicare – the crown jewel of Tommy Douglas’ socialism, the government can govern for the majority of the people and protect its weak and vulnerable.

The New NDP of today have work to do.

1) The fresh voices need to get a game plan together, good communications staff and send out a strong, consistent message that the NDP are working for the people, not the corporations and not the rich.

2) They need to do a ton of legwork and expose the money trail that keeps the PC’s and Liberal campaign coffers full. The PC’s raise a shitload of money, and you can bet that a huge chunk of that is from corporations that are also taking a fair chunk of tax dollars and making huge profits based on government policy.


3) They need to sell the fact that capitalism and the free markets have failed many Canadians, and that moving closer to the American model is a mistake. We need to insulate ourselves from the greed and fraud that germinate a free market that has no oversight and relies on industry to police itself.

4) The New NDP also have some work to do to come up with creative initiatives that will help sell their policy and also pay for the programs that will help the average Canadians . They need to take some business courses and see how the markets work, how trade works and how the free market system runs in the real world. Then they need to take that information and tax the shit out of the multinationals, the ultra rich and the billion dollar corporations and banks. They need to do their homework and understand the positives and negatives of these sorts of taxes.


5) In the end if the NDP are going to move forward they need to set some milestones and create some achievements that show average Canadians that Socialism is not the dark dangerous boogyman that the private corporations and the rich would have you believe. They need to take a page from Warren Buffet and not be afraid of taxing the rich. And they need to hire the right people who can balance the needs of industry properly with the needs of Canadians.

If the NDP play their cards right I think there is a great chance that their success can continue. They have every opportunity in the world to do some real damage to the PC’s by sending in the dogs to sniff out and expose who the governing party is really working for, put a wedge between the people who really benefit from the PC’s platform and the other 95% of Canadians and then use all their weight to pry the votes away from the right toward the left.

The PC’s need to raise millions to “sell” us their platform. The NDP only needs to expose the rot beneath the feet of the right, and the votes will come from the sky like the leaves in the fall.

...and why am I suddenly feeling an Orwellian vibe here?

[bootlegga]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

It's a question that's on the mind of many people. Prior to his death many people said that the NDP ended up as official opposition only because they had a demagogue for a leader and many of the vote's cast for them were protest votes against the Conservcatives, Liberals and Bloc Quebecois, rather than an endorsement of the policies of the NDP(hence all the unknown first timers winning against long time MPs).

As was mentioned in an article, the orange posters covering Quebec were almost exclusively Jack Layton posters and very few had pictures of the local NDP candidates....many of whom had deep roots in the BQ and PQ, including the current interim leader.

Personally, I think that the NDP is going to be a one hit wonder and will be relegated back to third party staus once the Liberals get their house back in order. Jack was one of the legs holding them up, the good leg. The protest vote, the gimp leg, is depending on the fickleness of the Quebec electorate. One man's personality can't be what they rely on to keep them where they are. They need something else to keep them relevant.

Without Jack, the NDP is going to have to rely on their message to keep the party afloat, and personally I believe most Canadians, including those who vote for the NDP provincially, don't trust the federal party and its fringe agendas. Then, there is the cozying up with the separatists. This will go over like a fart in a diving helmet with most NDP supporters outside of Quebec, bleeding support to the staunchly federalist Greens or the Liberals if it continues.

These are merely my opinions, and I thought I'd keep them out of the tribute threads. We've witnessed the sudden demise of Jack layton over the past two months. While his death is not a mortal wound for the NDP as a party, can they ever hope to reach the heights they've reached without his charisma, based solely on their policies? It's pretty obvious that the CPC didn't rely on Harper's charisma to win them a majority.

I think it all depends on who their next leader is.

If they pick another lame horse like Alexa McDonough, they're in trouble, however, if they can find a someone like Ed Broadbent, they have a chance of doing better in the next election.

Personality and charisma might not be the only thing people look for, but it is an important thing. It's one of the reasons Iggy faired so poorly - in person he's tremendously charismatic and a great speaker - but on TV, not so much.

[jeff744]

Sadly I must agree, I am already unsure of if I will be voting for them again, if they pick a member with a Bloc background and forget about everyone else but Quebec I will be changing over to the Liberals until a better choice becomes available. There is too much uncertainty at this point though, give them a year and we will see where it turns out.

[Bruce_the_vii]

I find this an interesting thread, and the posts have been quite readable. Sheps' original post was articulate and a good read.

The NDP membership are fairly cohesive and know what they want, some moderate leftie like Jack Layton. I don't think the leadership contest will tear them apart. It's a fun idea to think about, a little action would entertain, but I think not. I see much the same.