[Brianne]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] trying to develop and implement a cadillac like the Arrow was <b>too much for a country like Canada</b> <br /> <br />and <br /> <br />My argument is that it was a technically suberb plane, and it was <b>economically feasible for us to produce it,</b> but that militarily we had little use for it, so why waste the money? [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Which is it? Not that it matters. The argument that we had no need to fear Soviet bombers (which, naturally, we did) is disproven by NORAD, which was created in 1957 to protect North American air space from both missiles and aircraft. So, if we were worried about Soviet bombers, why was a successful program like the Arrow scrapped? Or, if the threat had passed, why wasn't NORAD mission changed? <br /> <br />And, since the program was scrapped, where did all that now-not-wasted money go? As far as I know, and granted, I lost interest in DRDC when I was about 18, we don't do a hell of a lot. We buy most of our technologies, and we are definently a laughingstock when it comes to our aerospace capabilities. So, if we were going to concentrate on other interceptors, and we obviously had the resources to succeed after the Avro, why didn't we?

[z_whalen]

To answer your first point: just because it was economically feasible does not make it wise. The RCAF specifications for the Arrow were set extremely high, we could have developped a less costly interceptor to do the same job, therefore saving money for different research. Put all your money in one place or spread it around. I guess it's a matter of opinion, mine being that we should spread it around. However, we didn't save any money by scrapping the program when we did, just the money that we would have spent producing more Arrows. The money was already wasted, because the aircraft would probably never be fully implemented even if developpment had continued, due to the <b>reduced</b> threat of a Soviet bomber entering our airspace. The big problem with the Arrow was too much ambition. When the threat of a Soviet air attack was real, other countries simply designed an interceptor that could deal with the problem and that was that. Canada however wanted a jet that went above and beyond our air defense needs, which is all well and good, except that it took so long to develop that by the time it was almost ready, Soviet bombers were no longer a huge threat. We could spend millions more buying these expensive jets that we could never use, or we could scrap their designs and keep the technology from falling into the wrong hands. <br /> <br />As for why NORAD was successful, while the Arrow was scrapped you pretty much answered that for yourself. <br /> <br />"The argument that we had no need to fear Soviet bombers (which, naturally, we did) is disproven by NORAD, which was created in 1957 to protect North American air space from both <b>missiles</b> and aircraft." <br /> <br />Air strikes were still a threat, but this threat was diminished at the time in comparison to a missile strike. NORAD could help protect from both a missiles and aircraft, while the Arrow could only protect against the lesser of the two. NORAD is still operational today. The interceptors made to repel Soviet bombers are not.

[Dr Caleb]

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] <br />As for why NORAD was successful, while the Arrow was scrapped you pretty much answered that for yourself. <br /> <br />... <br />The interceptors made to repel Soviet bombers are not.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />The question never answered is: Why were the research, plans, schematics and prototypes also destroyed. Answer that, and you'll have the real reason, not the costs. <br /> <br />??? F-16's were converted to ground attack, F-18's and F-15's, F-111's are still in the air. So is the MiG-23 and 25. <br />

[canuck]

"The RCAF specifications for the Arrow were set extremely high, we could have developped a less costly interceptor to do the same job, therefore saving money for different research." <br /> <br />Here is the fallacy of your argument. The specifications were tough because of what the RCAF needed the aircraft to do. <br /> <br />I'm sure if there was an aircraft already in existence capable of flying thousands of kilometers to the high arctic, with engines powerful enough to get it to high altitude at supersonic speeds in order to intercept bombers before they crossed the arctic circle, than the Arrow wouldn't have been proposed in the first place. <br /> <br />You have absolutely no grounds to make the statement that a less costly aircraft with the capabilities necessary to accomplish the mission at hand could have been possible.

[whelan costen]

Another point involving the Avrow Arrow is that the U.S. had already spent its budget, couldn't afford our technology, other countries wanted it and it was far superior to the U.S.'s jets, so the U.S. couldn't allow Canada to sell Arrow's to other countries which would make them superior. That is in part why all plans had to be scrapped. We lost more than money, as the experts had no where to go but the U.S. and there are many spin offs from the aerospace technology, which Canada would have been the recipient. So the whole mess, cost Canadians, because our politicians couldn't stand up to the U.S. and for Canadians. That is my take on the issue.

[Damien]

[QUOTE BY= Stymiest] I never said one such thing about your views oh and by the way that document is pre WWII and was made in the 1920s hardly valid today wouldn't you imagine <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Not when someone like Bush got his finger right next to the "big red button"...

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= Damien] [QUOTE BY= Stymiest] I never said one such thing about your views oh and by the way that document is pre WWII and was made in the 1920s hardly valid today wouldn't you imagine <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> Not when someone like Bush got his finger right next to the "big red button"...[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> I like to think they won't let him do that.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= whelan costen] Another point involving the Avrow Arrow is that the U.S. had already spent its budget, couldn't afford our technology, other countries wanted it and it was far superior to the U.S.'s jets, so the U.S. couldn't allow Canada to sell Arrow's to other countries which would make them superior. That is in part why all plans had to be scrapped. We lost more than money, as the experts had no where to go but the U.S. and there are many spin offs from the aerospace technology, which Canada would have been the recipient. So the whole mess, cost Canadians, because our politicians couldn't stand up to the U.S. and for Canadians. That is my take on the issue.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Yeah. If we had dumped the Bomarc missile, we would have had more than enough for the Arrow.<br /> <br /> The prodcution line had already been developed, and planes were being rolled out, so the cost per aircraft was coming WAY down as thing do in mass production.<br /> <br /> Read Palmiro Campagna's book "Storms of Controversy", thrid edition. It's the best one I've seen on evidence, and much evidence is still classified or has been destroyed.

[Guest]

Lets see<br /> <br /> parliament passed a law that stated all Ministers must follow the directives of CSIS<br /> (that put a paramilitary group in charge of a Democraticly Elected Government)<br /> <br /> the Anti terrorist legislation put American security Forces in charge of CSIS and The RCMP.<br /> <br /> Most Police Forces in Canada recieved some of there training from The L.A. Police( recalling mass innocent incarcerations by L.A. Police)<br /> <br /> http://www.internetpirate.com/darkalliancept1.htm<br /> <br /> Dennis Baker

[dfcollet]

Hi. New to the thread but old to the issue.<br /> <br /> First, just because the technology isn't used anymore doesn't mean it wasn't usefull or required at the time.<br /> <br /> Secondly, research money is never (with strong emphasis) wasted. This is like sending your kid to school. You never know what you will get but you have a rock solid belief that something good will happen. Lots of great commercial things like teflon just seem to happen.<br /> <br /> Finally, the money spent by the government on jobs is also never wasted. People spend their wages, pay their taxes and the economy grows.<br /> <br /> The Arrow was the most advanced design in aircraft at its time and continues to be the basis for stealth technology and lots of other applications. Canadians are far to modest and complacent to realize this.<br /> <br /> Let's just let big brother next door take care of it and we can continue with our fishing and camping trips. No real need to worry. We don't really need much money to enjoy life in Canada because there is so much to do that is free.<br /> <br /> I haven't lived in Canada for a long time but I still hold my passport and my citizenship because I am a proud Canadian. Just not so proud of what we let our neighbour get away with. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/confused.gif' alt='Confused'>

[no1important]

I saw on news tonight these Minutemen clowns are going to start patrolling border today. Some have guns. I see potential that they may have a shootout or two with the Hells Angels eventually. I also see they have ties to racist groups in America. They are also known to be anti immigration. All I can say is stay on your side of border, the last thing we need is a bunch of gun toting trigger happy neocons "patrolling" near us.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.cbcunlocked.com/artman/publish/article_579.shtml">U.S. Minutemen set to start guarding B.C. border</a><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050926/OPINION/509260311/1006&theme=">Just a minute, Minutemen; Vermont says 'No thanks'</a><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.workers.org/2005/us/minutemen-0922/">“Minutemen, racist, KKK, fascists out of the USA!</a><br /> <br /> The Minutemen chose Long Island to launch their neo-Nazi campaign against immigrants because recent arrests, police harassment, evictions and official sanctions against Mexican day laborers residing in Farmingville have encouraged reactionaries to believe that a Minuteman pre sence could be established in the area.<br /> <br /> [<a href="http://www.aztlan.net/hate_at_the_border.htm">USA officials seek to declare "border vigilantism"<br /> a federal hate crime</a><br /> <br /> Los Angeles, Alta California - August 15, 2005 - (ACN) At a press conference Friday at the offices of the Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores (Department of State of the Republic of Mexico), four USA elected officials said that they will be asking the Bush Administration to declare "border vigilantism" against Mexican and other immigrants along the US/Mexico border prosecutable and punishable under the federal hate crime laws. The officials said that the violent activities by groups like the Minutemen vigilantes, the KKK, white supremacy militias and other similar groups are totally unacceptable.

[Brother Jonathan]

As a Vermonter who agrees with the “no thanks” sentiment, I nonetheless should respond:<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by no1important]</b> I also see [the Minutemen] have ties to racist groups in America.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> I looked at your links, but I didn’t see where the ties were found between the Minutemen and the racist groups.<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by no1important]</b> They are also known to be anti-immigration.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> My understanding was that they are anti-<i>illegal</i> immigration, much as the quote from the Minuteman from Washington stated in the B.C. article — “We don’t care who comes into the country, as long as they come in the front door and sign the guest book.” Would it be fair to state that this also summarises the typical Canadian’s view on immigration to Canada?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by <i>Workers World</i>]</b> The Minutemen chose Long Island to launch their neo-Nazi campaign against immigrants because …<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Could there be a bit of hyperbole here? What if <i>Workers World</i> is mistaken — what if the Minutemen only campaign against <i>illegal</i> immigrants? Would they still be labeled as neo-Nazi?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by <i>La Voz de Aztlán</i>]</b> The officials said that the violent activities by groups like the Minutemen vigilantes, the KKK, white supremacy militias and other similar groups are totally unacceptable.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> Violent activities by <i>any</i> group (or any individual, for that matter) are totally unacceptable. Exactly what violent activities have the Minutemen carried out?<br /> <br /> [QUOTE by press release]</b> Bush should openly declare that he is against the Minuteman Project, and more aggressively criminalize their activities, which are motivated by anti-immigrant sentiments that are racist and paranoiac.<b>[/QUOTE]<br /> I see the Minuteman point of view as being that legal immigration is OK and illegal immigration is not OK. They’re not monitoring ports of entry — they’re monitoring those places where illegal immigrants are known to enter. They’re not physically preventing the illegal entry — they’re just calling the Border Patrol to let them know that the entry has happened.<br /> <br /> Their sentiments could well be paranoid — one could judge any strongly-held nationalist viewpoint as paranoid to some degree — but since they’re intent on monitoring both the southern <i>and</i> the northern borders, I don’t understand how their sentiments can be racist.

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= no1important] I saw on news tonight these Minutemen clowns are going to start patrolling border today. Some have guns. I see potential that they may have a shootout or two with the Hells Angels eventually. I also see they have ties to racist groups in America. They are also known to be anti immigration. All I can say is stay on your side of border, the last thing we need is a bunch of gun toting trigger happy neocons "patrolling" near us.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.cbcunlocked.com/artman/publish/article_579.shtml">U.S. Minutemen set to start guarding B.C. border</a><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050926/OPINION/509260311/1006&theme=">Just a minute, Minutemen; Vermont says 'No thanks'</a><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.workers.org/2005/us/minutemen-0922/">“Minutemen, racist, KKK, fascists out of the USA!</a><br /> <br /> The Minutemen chose Long Island to launch their neo-Nazi campaign against immigrants because recent arrests, police harassment, evictions and official sanctions against Mexican day laborers residing in Farmingville have encouraged reactionaries to believe that a Minuteman pre sence could be established in the area.<br /> <br /> [<a href="http://www.aztlan.net/hate_at_the_border.htm">USA officials seek to declare "border vigilantism"<br /> a federal hate crime</a><br /> <br /> Los Angeles, Alta California - August 15, 2005 - (ACN) At a press conference Friday at the offices of the Secretaria de Relaciones Exteriores (Department of State of the Republic of Mexico), four USA elected officials said that they will be asking the Bush Administration to declare "border vigilantism" against Mexican and other immigrants along the US/Mexico border prosecutable and punishable under the federal hate crime laws. The officials said that the violent activities by groups like the Minutemen vigilantes, the KKK, white supremacy militias and other similar groups are totally unacceptable.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> The Minutemen are not Nazis--they are responding to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants that the U.S. refuses to defend their border against for fear of upsetting their "one-world" borderless world ideology.

[no1important]

Really, then read this article. a paragraph.<br /> <br /> <br /> After gathering at 15th and N, with food provided by Sacramento Food Not Bombs, protesters marched to the area where the Minutemen were gathered to give them their regards.<b>On the way, they noticed recruitment flyers put up by the National Alliance, a white supremacist group with ties to the Minutemen.</b> As expected, when the protesters arrived, one set of racist vigilantes - the Minutemen - were being protected by another set of racist vigilantes - the brown shirts (CHP) and the blue shirts (Sacto PD). With whistles, megaphones, shouting and the Brass Liberation Orchestra, the Minutemen were greeted with a wall of sound, along with dozens of colorful banners and posters, and the breaking of a Minuteman piñata. The kops arrested a protester for not getting out of the road fast enough and brutalized him so bad they had to take him to the hospital afterward.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1779577.php">here</a><b>

[Perturbed]

[QUOTE BY= no1important] Really, then read this article. a paragraph.<br /> <br /> <br /> After gathering at 15th and N, with food provided by Sacramento Food Not Bombs, protesters marched to the area where the Minutemen were gathered to give them their regards.<b>On the way, they noticed recruitment flyers put up by the National Alliance, a white supremacist group with ties to the Minutemen.</b> As expected, when the protesters arrived, one set of racist vigilantes - the Minutemen - were being protected by another set of racist vigilantes - the brown shirts (CHP) and the blue shirts (Sacto PD). With whistles, megaphones, shouting and the Brass Liberation Orchestra, the Minutemen were greeted with a wall of sound, along with dozens of colorful banners and posters, and the breaking of a Minuteman piñata. The kops arrested a protester for not getting out of the road fast enough and brutalized him so bad they had to take him to the hospital afterward.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/10/1779577.php">here</a><b>[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> Minutemen could have ties to those groups, but that has nothing to do with protecting the U.S. border--which is a good thing to do. It enforces sovereignty--something Canada should do.<br /> <br /> Are you really that afraid of a nationalist group that has zero political power?<br /> <br />