[Cmmd1]

And its look propaganda on your side too man.

To answer your question, I know you find it funny but I really think that the PQ would kill quebec economy if we ever separate.

You dont think ? We are both in Propaganda, so nobody can say he is write.

That is the problem with the separation. Nobody have the same number, the same thing. I did not find it, but on Radio, A Havard Study say that Quebec will be "prospère" if we become a country, Because of the "Libre-échange". Seriously i dont understand why they say that lol. But if we got OUR money, its will suck, if we are lower then Canada, USA and other country will buy here ! And we will be force to make industrie, because we will not able to buy stuff from outside quebec. And we need that, more industries.

We got the St-Laurent too, never forgive that, if we have to pay for go to Canada by "douanes" Their ship will have too pay to in St-Laurent. No ?

[Cmmd1]

What the PQ did so wrong ?

[Sharkull]

I picked one of the dozen+ times you asked this question, at random...

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

Why Canadians have a Independant country, and Quebec dont have? Its not fair !!!! Canadians speak english, USA too. Canadians look at USA tv and USA music. You came from the same place ( british )

The point is that Canadians, say to quebec. Stay !!!! Together we are stronger, Unit we Stand !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Etc. So if I use this logic, Canada will be bigger, stronger and more rich. If we join USA. No ?? If no, why Quebec should rest in Canada?

You want an answer so badly, well here you go... I assume that you will not accept the obvious "I like Canada just the way it is" (with you likely responding that you don't), so I'll be more detailed. ...and remember, I can only speak for myself, not all Canadians.

Canada has a history that makes it its own country. Quebec does not. Not fair? Who ever said life was fair? This is the current situation. Stop whining and deal with it.

Would I want Canada to become a part of the USA? No. Not just for cultural reasons (mosaic vs. melting pot)... we are very similar after all (and language has nothing to do with it). Most of my reasons are more selfish than that. I like Canada better because of our politics and standard of living. I'll explain in more detail below.

Politics:
I like the idea of an elected head of state like the U.S. President (Cretien ruled Ottawa like a dictator and the only people who voted directly for him were in Shawinigan... ), but having that office's key power being the control of the armed forces only biases the attention of the nation's foreign policy towards military action. A U.S. President who wants to raise their political profile can quickly do so by exercising the country's military muscles.

Also, there are long standing, entrenched political power structures within the USA that a newly joined Canada would be looking at from the outside. There would be very little Canadians could do to influence public policy in the USA... I would not like this at all.

Standard of Living:
The Canadian economy is strong (with free trade...), and we benefit greatly by our neighbour from the south being separate from us. The USA's military helps to protect Canada, so our need for a strong armed forces is decreased (Thanks USA taxpayers and military folks! ). Instead of a huge military budget, we can spend that money on things like a public health care system.

Also, the standard of living in the USA is not as good as in Canada. The division between the classes (lower, middle & upper) is greater south of the border (this may be a mistake on my part, it's just what I believe)... and then there is the issue of gun control. I don't like guns. I think that having lots of guns in the hands of lots of people is a BAD thing. There's nothing wrong with a hunting rifle / shotgun (hunting is healthy for wildlife management), but the proliferation of handguns and automatic weapons in the USA scares the poop out of me. I hope that Canada remains the mostly-gun-crime-free peaceful nation I love for a long, long time.

I have more reasons, but that should suffice. Does that finally answer your question for you? If not, too bad. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it.


Above I said "Deal with it."... and I expect that your response will be that you are... by pursuing separation. I'll ask you in return, why is that your reaction? What's so bad with being a part of Canada? You don't like Quebec's representation in Ottawa? Well, that's what you get when you elect an impotent BQ to the federal government. The BQ has no power in Ottawa, and the BQ will never have power in Ottawa. You don't like the fiscal imbalance? You don't like the power structure of Ottawa? Well, what have you done to change things? Send the BQ to whine and complain about the injustice of it all? Yeah, that will work. Right.

Don't want to fix things from within you say? You want separation? Be careful what you ask for... Since you seem to like repeating yourself, I shall do the same.

Sharkull Sharkull:

Quebec separation: Think of the consequences...

- bye-bye official bilingualism for the remainder of Canada (don't kid yourself... this WOULD happen). Impact to French "culture", less opportunities to do business in French >> more incentive for Quebecers to learn English... Translation: net loss.

- bye-bye federal fiscal links. No federal taxes paid, but no transfer payments either (currently a big net gain for Quebec)... oh, and there is the "small" matter of Quebec's share of the national debt (a per capita division works for me...). Translation: big... no HUGE net loss.

- bye-bye federal services. No more Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, Canadian Armed Forces, RCMP, Federal Courts, Postal Service, Canadian Passports... no more access to the Bank of Canada (what would an independent Quebec's international credit rating look like...? Yikes!). All of these things (and more) will have to be either services paid for by Quebec, or replaced by Quebec only solutions (at Quebec's expense). Translation: another net loss.

- impact on Quebec economy. Canada wide companies may open a Quebec branch (depending on how corporate laws within Quebec would be structured), but I expect most would remain mostly outside Quebec. With the increased tax burdens likely imposed on Quebec businesses to cover for the loss of transfer payments from Ottawa, larger companies will probably move. Smaller companies will be less likely to compete in a world economy with those higher taxes too... some will shrivel and die. Translation: net loss #4.

- native land claims / First Nations. A huge wrench in the separatist's machine. Does Quebec try to take responsibility for all treaties (if even legally possible)? How would First Nations people feel about being located within a separate Quebec? Translation: a huge headache waiting to happen.

...need I go on?

Do you think the average Quebec citizen (one of that 54% anyways) is thinking about these things when voting for separation? No, probably not. Why? My guess would be a biased media and political manipulation of the issues.

I don't blame Quebecers for voting for separation... I really don't. They love their culture and want to preserve it... and I can certainly empathize with this mentality. I am a white second generation Canadian male, of mainly British heritage, and I see my culture being continually trampled on from all sides. I've learned more about Canadian history in TV documentaries and by reading then I was ever taught in the public school system (my grade 9 "History" class was 90% then-current government structure and recent politics!). We can host various cultural events like the Caribanna festival in Toronto (which is great!), but put up a Christmas Tree outside City Hall in December and you have to call it something else (a "Holiday Tree") out of respect for cultural diversity!?!?! The double-standard makes me sick ("Political Correctness" gone waaaaaay too far). You can publicly celebrate your culture, just as long as you aren't of white European descent. What a load of BS.

Quebec doesn't want this type of thing to happen to them, and they have a language barrier which can help them protect their culture. This I can understand, but I don't like how it is being played out. For this I blame Quebec politicians for not seeking solutions within Canada, instead choosing to blackmail the rest of Canada with threats of separation. You better bet the politicians know all about the drawbacks of separation... they probably just don't care. Quebec separatist politicians stand to gain more power and prestige from the separation issue, and likely care very little for the standard of living for average Quebecers (except for how it might impact the political environment). They peddle easy answers to complex issues, and get the backing of Quebec media because the ultimate motivation of all Canadian media is to sell their product (radio / TV ratings, newspaper sales...), and easy answers sell very well.

At the end of the day, I think the separation issue is a lot of hot air. Ignore polls which talk about an "economic and political partnership with the rest of Canada" (i.e. the eat cake and have it too type question) because when it comes to negotiation of terms Canada can just say "all or nothing... end of story". Separation is not going to happen... and if it does, then Quebec will be VERY sorry about getting what they wished for. I just hope they don't take the rest of us down with them.

Are there serious problems with the way Ottawa works? Yes. A strong centralized government without clear financial objectives is a recipe for corruption. Does this mean I want Ontario to separate from the rest of Canada? No. It means that the system is broken and needs to be fixed. The fiscal imbalance is a great place to start. Do you think the BQ has a chance at making changes? Don't be absurd. They are powerless, and they know it. They sit on their high-horse and can say whatever they want without any chance of being called into account for it. It's easy to speak from the cheap seats. The CPC has vowed to work towards removing the fiscal imbalance... and they actually have a chance at getting something done. They CAN form government... I wonder if Quebecers will consider the other non-Liberal option in the next election.

Peace.

[deneb]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

I belive PQ AND LIBERALS !!!!!! Dont forget that !!!!!! If you read Paper or listen to Radio-Canada, Jean Charest Recognize the deficit Fiscal !!! Why Jean Charest have to get on his knee to have cash from federal ??? Look for the Students thing...

So Jean Charest say it..... You dont trust him too ???

I don't get the point. Since when the Fiscal deficit is a Quebec only issue?

Every provincial prime minister have issues with the federal. Provinces are all unhappy about something with the federal and that's okay. I know you think that the 11 others provinces/territories are all conspirating against Quebec but let me tell you that it's more likely the opposite. What other canucks see is that Quebec is getting most of the candies from the federal thanks to the separation threat. So bare in mind that elsewhere in Canada they have a completely different interpretation of the situation. That's why they see separatist as whiners and cry babies... I don't think they're completely wrong on that neither.

If you want the full picture, I suggest you don't trust quebec medias only... check what they say about it else where in canada... they're not bearer of truth neither, but if you look for your information part in Quebec and part in the rest of canada, you will see the 2 faces of the medal. (literal translation from french expression)

[Sharkull]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

IF we becoma a country, we will need to make thing here !!! Because like you think probably, our Quebecers Money will suck, so New job will rise, USAers and Canadians will buy product here.

So now your thriving economy is reduced so low that your standard of living is on par with third world labour? Post separation Quebecers will be willing to work for $1CDN a day? This is your position?

[Sharkull]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

Why the right is better for quebec ? Poor people will stay poor,

Left politics turn the poor into rich people? Yeah, that's the way the world works alright. Sure.

[Sharkull]

deneb deneb:

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

And NOBODY can have the anwser about the Budget of a Quebec country, we are not expert, and we dont know what PQ will do. BUT the 5 May 2005. We will KNOW what PQ see for the future of Quebec. Lets talk about that 5 may, we will be more inform

You're right, NOBODY knows what the PQ will do. You can guess the PQ doesn't know either cause they never explain it to the people of quebec. They are just saying the same old crap

"Oh no there wont be any problems."
"Quebec is economically healthy! (false)"
"we'll keep the CAD$" (yet to be proven...)
"we'll become richer since federal governement will stop stealing us money (typical selfish separatist comment... like the other provinces were all happy about the equalization)

What freaks me out is that you think it's ok if we dont know what the PQ will do after the break up. Hey, it's your future... the future of your kids! You're going to trust those idiots at the PQ without asking questions? That's a lot of faith for a governement that has yet to prove it is competent. On a lot of occasions it has rather proven the opposite.

Well said!

[Sharkull]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

Yes we dont know yet, But the 5 May, Francois Legault will put a Budget of the year 1 of Quebec. We have to wait there to have conclusion.

Useless. The terms of separation would have to be negotiated with the government of Canada, and the rest of the provinces. Any numbers now would be 100% speculation, and designed around putting a happy face on uncertainty.

[Cmmd1]

One thing is Clear ! Is that PQ doesn't explain well much his vision ! So i will awnser for myself to :

- bye-bye official bilingualism for the remainder of Canada (don't kid yourself... this WOULD happen). Impact to French "culture", less opportunities to do business in French >> more incentive for Quebecers to learn English... Translation: net loss.

- bye-bye federal fiscal links. No federal taxes paid, but no transfer payments either (currently a big net gain for Quebec)... oh, and there is the "small" matter of Quebec's share of the national debt (a per capita division works for me...). Translation: big... no HUGE net loss.

- bye-bye federal services. No more Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, Canadian Armed Forces, RCMP, Federal Courts, Postal Service, Canadian Passports... no more access to the Bank of Canada (what would an independent Quebec's international credit rating look like...? Yikes!). All of these things (and more) will have to be either services paid for by Quebec, or replaced by Quebec only solutions (at Quebec's expense). Translation: another net loss.

- impact on Quebec economy. Canada wide companies may open a Quebec branch (depending on how corporate laws within Quebec would be structured), but I expect most would remain mostly outside Quebec. With the increased tax burdens likely imposed on Quebec businesses to cover for the loss of transfer payments from Ottawa, larger companies will probably move. Smaller companies will be less likely to compete in a world economy with those higher taxes too... some will shrivel and die. Translation: net loss #4.

- native land claims / First Nations. A huge wrench in the separatist's machine. Does Quebec try to take responsibility for all treaties (if even legally possible)? How would First Nations people feel about being located within a separate Quebec? Translation: a huge headache waiting to happen.

1- Yes.... that suck for the rest of french canadians..... But maybe they will come here after ! we came from the same place.

2- For the debt, and fiscal link ( Even Ontario have deficit fiscal... and Jean Charest our Prime FEDERALIST recognize that. So for now, we loss cash ). I'm ready to pay more and we will control our debt, we will maybe paid it faster or slower then with the federal. But i'm ready to take it.

3- We pay for have these service, lol Canada dont give that us Free !!! So the tax that go on pass-port, Revenue, federal court, postal. We will use these taxe for our gouvernement ! Like now ( its a exemple ) we pay 50% to provincial and 50% to federal. So if we quit canada. We gonna pay 100% to Quebec no ? And for Quebec army, I want a Neutral army, we have not the right to attack or join coalition. But we got to be able to defend us.

4- We rush already with economy. We sell to much of our "Primary Ressource" and buy too much of Product made in USA or China or anywhere. So if our economy suck, Our cash will be low ( if we got quebecers money ) so more compagnie will come, we will be unable to buy car form USA or Canada, so we will built them.

5- Native deserve much more then they have now, i want them to vote their deputy, to be more in gouvernement.

But I can understand that PQ dont tell much about what you said. That too true. But i think PQ understand that. 5 may 2005 we will have a "Fake Budget" of a Quebec country. Made by 6 independant people. I will post it, maybe it will suck, maybe not.

[Pimpbrewski]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

One thing is Clear ! Is that PQ doesn't explain well much his vision ! ................

But I can understand that PQ dont tell much about what you said. That too true. But i think PQ understand that. 5 may 2005 we will have a "Fake Budget" of a Quebec country. Made by 6 independant people. I will post it, maybe it will suck, maybe not.

A fake budget is all it is...... fake

And yes, the PQ does not have a clear vision on it's own cause. Maybe that's why it uses the French Canadian media for spreading their own propaganda. You have been mislead for years, and you don't seem to realize it.

[Sharkull]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

And question. What is more Possible, The destruction of Canada or the destruction of quebec ???? after the separation ?

Easy answer. The destruction of Quebec. Canada has Alberta and Ontario to pay the bills, and a strong diverse core of Canadians who love it here.

A separate Quebec would be, at best, economically unstable, at worst, a complete economic collapse. A large portion of Quebec's population (49.9+%) would be VERY unhappy at the new way of things... you figure it out.

[Sharkull]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

I belive PQ AND LIBERALS !!!!!! Dont forget that !!!!!! If you read Paper or listen to Radio-Canada, Jean Charest Recognize the deficit Fiscal !!!

So what? Do you even know what the fiscal deficit is?

[Sharkull]

Cmmd1 Cmmd1:

One thing is Clear ! Is that PQ doesn't explain well much his vision !

...

But I can understand that PQ dont tell much about what you said. That too true. But i think PQ understand that. 5 may 2005 we will have a "Fake Budget" of a Quebec country. Made by 6 independant people. I will post it, maybe it will suck, maybe not.

Why listen to the PQ propaganda? Your analysis of #1 & 4 was quite good. Your government financial knowledge seems a bit lacking (#2-3), and clearly you don't know much about the Native issues, but you seem to have your own brain. Use it... seek a broader opinion base (Canadian media from coast to coast, not just Quebec stuff). Google is your friend.

...and why no comment on my answer to the question you asked a bajillion times?

[Zipperfish]

The fact is that Frist Nations land is not under Quebec control. The Cree have treaties with Canada not Quebec. Quebec, if it separates, will not maintain its territorial integrity if the Cree and Inuit opt out.

[Cmmd1]

The deficit fiscal is : Ok i will make a simple explaination

Quebec give in taxe and impot, cash to Federal > In return federal is suppose to take all of the money of canadian, and redistribute equaly. But in the system now, Ontario and Quebec declare that the federals did not give all the cash. 2.2billions less in Ontario and 1.6 less in quebec. That is the deficits fiscal.

Its not the PQ who make the Budget of a Quebec free, it's a independant report. He will give the sourve of who did that, we will see.